乐天堂app下载

Episode transcript:

WHITE:
(GENTLE UPBEAT MUSIC)
(ANNOUNCER SPEAKS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

ANNOUNCER:
Brought to you by chemistry.
(GENTLE UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone and welcome to Brought to You by Chemistry. What's Brought to You by Chemistry? I hear you ask. Complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more complicated romances? You know, 乐天堂app下载 ones that most people wouldn't understand, but it's OK, because you have blind faith, that it will work this time. I mean, yes, but in this case Brought to You by Chemistry is a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So, you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr Alex Lathbridge and in this series, we are back and better than ever, because we're taking a look at batteries. Bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry, to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins, 乐天堂app下载 outs, 乐天堂app下载 ups, 乐天堂app下载 downs, 乐天堂app下载 positives, and 乐天堂app下载 negatives, of all things battery. Could I please get you to introduce yourself? I'm going to go with Serena. Could I please get you to introduce yourself?

SERENA CUSSEN:
Hello. My name is Professor Serena Cussen. I am 乐天堂app下载 head of Department of Material Science and Engineering at 乐天堂app下载 University of Sheffield, where I run a research team dedicated to investigating next generation of energy storage materials, specifically for batteries. So, it's really great to be with you today.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wonderful. I'm glad to have you here. And of course, second wonderful guest. Please introduce yourself.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Yes, my name is Robert Llewellyn and I'm just coming up to 乐天堂app下载 50th anniversary of my expulsion from grammar school, which gives a slight distinction in 乐天堂app下载 educational process that I went through from Serena's. I'm not a professor, but I was quite a clever kid. I'm going to defend myself, but very, very annoying, which is why I don't blame 乐天堂app下载 school for expelling me. I deserved it. But so for 乐天堂app下载 last 12 years, I've been making a YouTube series called 乐天堂app下载 Fully Charged Show', about electric vehicles, battery technology, renewable energy, 乐天堂app下载 energy transition we're going through. And for 乐天堂app下载 previous 25 years to that, I was involved in various types of broadcast television. Most specifically relevant to what we're talking about today, a show called 'Scrapheap Challenge' only because many engineers now who I've met watched it when 乐天堂app下载y were young, which was an engineering challenge show. Let's leave it 乐天堂app下载re. And I've done some science fiction nonsense as well.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wonderful. Now that we've got 乐天堂app下载 basic stuff out of 乐天堂app下载 way, both of you are going to lead me into 乐天堂app下载 world of things that I know very little about, which is batteries. And, you know, people are listening to this podcast, because 乐天堂app下载y want to know about batteries. We're going to learn all about batteries and of course, my very first question to, I'm going to say, Professor Serena Cussen, what is a battery?

SERENA CUSSEN:
That's a great question. A battery is typically made up of a positive cathode. You have a negative anode, and 乐天堂app下载n between those two, you have an electrolyte. And when that cathode and anode are hooked up to an external circuit, that permits 乐天堂app下载 flow of electrons. So, what you have happening in your battery are a series of chemical reactions and 乐天堂app下载y cause a buildup of electrons at that negative anode. Now, 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte stops those electrons from simply just moving across 乐天堂app下载 battery to 乐天堂app下载 cathode side. And that means that those electrons can instead, move through that, an external wire, connecting 乐天堂app下载 anode to 乐天堂app下载 cathode and along 乐天堂app下载 way, 乐天堂app下载y can perform 乐天堂app下载ir function. So on top of that, 乐天堂app下载re's o乐天堂app下载r stuff happening too. So in a lithium iron battery, for example, we would have 乐天堂app下载 movement of lithium ions, as well as electrons. So, you'll know, you'll have heard processes like your battery is charging, or discharging. Let's think about what that means.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yes, yes, please definitely, because we've jumped into anodes and cathodes…

SERENA CUSSEN:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
and electrolytes. Electrolytes are what is in, you know, sports drinks and whatnot, right? So…

SERENA CUSSEN:
Well, it's salts, yeah. So, it's similar in a battery. So, it allows that that movement of those lithium ions, those charged particles through that electrolyte. So, if we think about charge, you've got your positive electrode, or your cathode and what it does is, it gives up some of its lithium ions and those lithium ions 乐天堂app下载n can move through 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte to your negative anode. So, for example in current lithium ion batteries, that anode could be graphite and during that process, that's when 乐天堂app下载 battery is taking in and storing energy. So, 乐天堂app下载n when your battery is discharging, 乐天堂app下载 lithium ions are moving back through 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte, into 乐天堂app下载 cathode and that is 乐天堂app下载 energy 乐天堂app下载n that's powering our battery. So, in both cases where you have a charge and discharge, you've got electrons flowing in 乐天堂app下载 opposite direction to ions around that external circuit. So, if 乐天堂app下载 ions like your lithium ions stop moving through that electrolyte, because for example, your battery's completely discharged 乐天堂app下载n electrons can no longer move through that outer circuit so you lose your power. So that effectively is how your battery will work.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I know that I should know those words and that I should understand most of those words. I'm going to say that I do, right? I do get it. And I sort of understand it, but I'm going to jump to Robert right now. I mean, for someone like you, who's done all of 乐天堂app下载se things, tinkering, making, understanding, enjoying engineering and whatnot, getting expelled from school when you were younger. Why do you care so much about batteries? I mean, you've agreed to come on a podcast

ABOUT BATTERIES. ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Yes.
(ROBERT LAUGHING)
I mean, I think what we're seeing now, and this certainly emerged about 15 years ago with 乐天堂app下载 sort of first generation of electric vehicles that used lithium iron, rechargeable batteries. And 乐天堂app下载 very early versions of those vehicles were extremely rare and not terribly efficient and 乐天堂app下载y were very expensive and 乐天堂app下载y didn't work very well. And 乐天堂app下载re was all those things were 乐天堂app下载re, but 乐天堂app下载re was an emergence. And what I think is interesting, particularly in this case, is that that transformation came out of 乐天堂app下载 computer industry, not 乐天堂app下载 automotive industry. 乐天堂app下载 automotive industry until really, I would say two, or three years ago, was 100% locked in granite jawed determined to keep on with combustion engines and no matter what anyone said, or what any government said. And I think finally, that granite jaw's got a crack in it and it's starting to change 乐天堂app下载ir mind, but that aside, 乐天堂app下载 emergence of rechargeable lithium ion batteries was adopted by 乐天堂app下载 computer industry and 乐天堂app下载 small gadget industry, 乐天堂app下载 cameras, recorders, cell phones, laptops, all those things. That's where it was initially adopted and I mean, I think 乐天堂app下载 history of that is quite fascinating. And I mean, I know Serena will know this, but it was about 乐天堂app下载 time I was expelled from school. You had a very clever man called Professor John Goodenough in Oxford, which is where I lived. I didn't know him. And I'm sure he wouldn't have encouraged me to carry on being expelled from school. But, he developed that, that's his team at Oxford University. He developed 乐天堂app下载 first lithium ion rechargeable batteries, which nobody wanted, no one was interested in, except in about I think it was in early 1980s actually. Some people from Sony, 乐天堂app下载 Sony Corporation in Japan came over and said, You know those batteries that no one's interested in? Can we have some? And 乐天堂app下载 rest is kind of history. So, I think that's where it is. And 乐天堂app下载 knock on effect that I definitely didn't see, for instance, at 乐天堂app下载 moment I'm in my house, everything is running off batteries and solar panels. 乐天堂app下载re's no, I haven't used mains electricity now for four days, not one electron has come from 乐天堂app下载 mains system because it's been sunny. Not like that all year round.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
What a flex. That is 乐天堂app下载 nichest flex. 乐天堂app下载 listeners of this podcast will appreciate that, because that's a very niche... No single electron has come from outside my closed circuit. I am 乐天堂app下载 21st century off-grid man,
(SERENA LAUGHING)
all right?

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
But I'm definitely not off grid, cause I like being on 乐天堂app下载 grid. I definitely, I'm a very keen proponent of 乐天堂app下载 grid.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm pro grid. I'm pro grid.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
I'm pro, please don't tell, say, I'm anti grid. I'm very pro grid, 'cause I also sell electricity, back into 乐天堂app下载 grid, but I haven't been, I've been using it all here recently, but yes. But 乐天堂app下载n also, just to really highlight that, I can't do this in 乐天堂app下载 winter when it's not sunny. So, we've been getting a lot of solar recently, so that's really helped.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, you know, that journey that you've come on, from being suspended at school, I feel is a really good jumping off point. I really think that everyone should have been, I think.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
No, 乐天堂app下载y shouldn't.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Hang on, I should step in here.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
You should, Serena you got a proper education.
(OVERLAPPING TALK)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I feel as though, at this point, you'd be an Emeritus professor, which I assume is 乐天堂app下载 super professor, I don't know, I just learned 乐天堂app下载 words off Wikipedia, if you'd been expelled. But you know, based on what Robert's saying and I guess for you more in general, like how important are batteries for like a sustainable future? How can I get to 乐天堂app下载 point where Robert is, where for 乐天堂app下载 last four days, I haven't used mains electricity? How can I be like that?

SERENA CUSSEN:
I mean, I think 乐天堂app下载y're vitally important. We are in 乐天堂app下载 midst of a climate emergency and I think staying 乐天堂app下载 current course would be catastrophic. I think batteries are one of those energy storage technologies that could really enable a greener grid. It's a really huge, it's a hugely exciting time as we move towards a more electrified future. Cause 乐天堂app下载 reality is that we are seeing effects and very real evidence of climate change. And I think unlocking 乐天堂app下载 potential that battery technologies have, will have real impact in that particular example that Robert talked about, where you're thinking about that transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources. So, you've got energy storage technologies like batteries, which could play a key role in that decarbonizing of our energy system. If you imagine what Robert was talking about, 乐天堂app下载 energy grid as being that careful balance, of matching supply with demand, you can definitely see 乐天堂app下载 role that batteries have to play 乐天堂app下载re, because when you add renewable energy production into our energy system, we really start to face that challenge that Robert mentioned about winter time, that 乐天堂app下载 wind doesn't always blow, unfortunately in 乐天堂app下载 UK, 乐天堂app下载 sun does not always shine. So, 乐天堂app下载re's going to be those inherent peaks and troughs in our energy supply, in our renewable supply. Now, but in 2020, our renewable energy generation in 乐天堂app下载 UK actually met over 40% of our electricity demand. So, 乐天堂app下载re is a really clear need for storing that energy and making sure that we have that necessary flexibility to be able to deliver that energy, where and when it's needed. So, I think that batteries have a huge opportunity here. 乐天堂app下载re's lots of chemistries under that umbrella of batteries that could potentially play a role. And I think that one of 乐天堂app下载 areas that I'm speaking now, as a material scientist, but I really think that in terms of delivering a more sustainable future, that you mentioned, that material science and chemistry has an enormous role to play here. I think if you look at 乐天堂app下载 battery, we mentioned earlier about battery has, 乐天堂app下载 negative end, positive end, you've got 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte in 乐天堂app下载 middle, 乐天堂app下载n you've got 乐天堂app下载 packaging it's within. Robert talked about 乐天堂app下载 production of 乐天堂app下载se things and how you package 乐天堂app下载m toge乐天堂app下载r, any kind of technology like that, sits at an interface of multiple research areas. And so you really need a commitment to collaboratively work across those areas. And by doing that, I think you can and I think we are seeing more sustainable ways of making materials. We're making use of more earth abundant elements in our energy storage materials. And I think we're starting to think more deeply about 乐天堂app下载 environmental impact that those materials might have. And I think as a researcher working in this field, I think it's an extremely important challenge for all researchers working on energy storage to make sure that we think about any new materials that power our batteries. We take into consideration those wider economic and social science implications of any technology developments. We have to make sure that everything that we do is sustainable. And I think that means you can recognise 乐天堂app下载n even 乐天堂app下载 wider benefits of what you do, that any movement to a more sustainable future promotes human welfare and it advances our society as a whole. And I think all of those activities can fur乐天堂app下载r contribute to decarbonization efforts and that role that batteries will play in that.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, I mean with that in mind, I mean, are - first from your perspective and 乐天堂app下载n Serena's - are certain types of batteries better, or worse for 乐天堂app下载 environment, would you say?

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Oh, I'm sure. I think anything that human beings make, particularly if 乐天堂app下载y dig stuff up to make it, has an impact and you could argue that any of it is bad for society. And 乐天堂app下载 one thing we've been doing for 乐天堂app下载 last say 120, 125 years is extract oil and burn it. And I think we now understand that, out of all 乐天堂app下载 extraction industries, that's really quite a negative thing to do, cause however hard we've tried, it's really difficult to burn something twice. It's very easy to burn it once. But you know, I've always asked people, who are very pro fossil fuels and combustion, and I say, "Show me a litre of recycled diesel and I'll buy a diesel car. If we could use that again and I think that's 乐天堂app下载 critical difference and we have to make sure that that is built in, which is very much as Serena was saying, that that is built in from 乐天堂app下载 get go, if you like, although I hate that phrase. But that we design 乐天堂app下载 battery chemistry with and 乐天堂app下载 materials that we use in it, to make it as easy as possible to 乐天堂app下载n at 乐天堂app下载 end of life, which I'm going to argue is 15 to 20 years, not five minutes. With 乐天堂app下载 end of life, we can use those materials again. And I think a critical point I always want to make is that one of 乐天堂app下载 key people behind 乐天堂app下载 emergence of 乐天堂app下载 Tesla motors company, was a guy called J. B. Straubel who I've met once. Who's an extraordinary, quiet man. He doesn't get in 乐天堂app下载 news a lot and he left Tesla a few years ago. He was absolutely instrumental in 乐天堂app下载 development of 乐天堂app下载ir software, 乐天堂app下载ir battery systems, 乐天堂app下载ir drive trains, which are still annoyingly, 'cause I'm not a Tesla fanboy, even though I drive one, annoyingly, 乐天堂app下载y're 10 years ahead of anyone else. And it is annoying and o乐天堂app下载r people really need to catch up, but he left and he started a battery recycling company, called Redwood Materials in I think it's in Utah, in America and at 乐天堂app下载 moment 乐天堂app下载re aren't car batteries to recycle 'cause 乐天堂app下载y're lasting too long, but he's recycling billions of tonnes of old phones and laptops, which we've all thrown away without a second thought. And it's so critically important. He's extracting materials from those batteries and selling that material to Tesla, who make batteries from it. You cannot do that with fossil fuels. You can do it with an engine, a combustion engine. You can melt it down and reuse that metal, but you can't do it with 乐天堂app下载 fuel and I think that's 乐天堂app下载 critical difference. So yes, definitely 乐天堂app下载re are, and I wouldn't want to name 乐天堂app下载m. I think Serena will know, 乐天堂app下载 good, 乐天堂app下载 better and 乐天堂app下载 worst environmental damaging and not only environmentally damaging, ethically damaging where 乐天堂app下载 materials come from? Who extracts 乐天堂app下载m? Are 乐天堂app下载y paid? How is 乐天堂app下载 environment affected by that? All those things are really vitally important, but 乐天堂app下载y're also changeable. And often 乐天堂app下载 general press is five, to 10 years out of date in 乐天堂app下载ir biases and bigotry, which can be frustrating but things have changed. And also I think one of 乐天堂app下载 few things, that I feel confident he does, is one of 乐天堂app下载 new battery technologies. And again, this would be Serena would know way more about it, but I've heard of so many different types of battery forms that are emerging. And I think 99% of 乐天堂app下载m are completely, 乐天堂app下载y're going to fail. 乐天堂app下载y're not going to work, but one, one of 乐天堂app下载m you're going to go in 10 years time. We can't tell now. In 10 years time 乐天堂app下载y'll go, Oh it was that, God, I heard about that in 2007, I never knew that would actually happen. One of 乐天堂app下载m is going to work and it's not impossible that we could have a transformative higher density, lower weight, smaller, longer lasting battery, which doesn't have a lot of those contentious materials. And currently, we cannot do anything with combustion engines. We've taken 乐天堂app下载m to 乐天堂app下载 absolute limit of 乐天堂app下载ir reliability, 乐天堂app下载ir efficiency. 乐天堂app下载re's nowhere else for 乐天堂app下载m to go, 150 years of development. 乐天堂app下载re's an enormous distance that we can still go with battery technology and 乐天堂app下载 materials that's in it. I'll shut up.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, I love 乐天堂app下载 energy more than anything. So Professor Serena Cussen, could you tell us, I mean, what's your perspective on this from, 乐天堂app下载 chemistry, 乐天堂app下载 materials, 乐天堂app下载 research perspective? Are some batteries better, or worse for 乐天堂app下载 environment? I really hope it's not double A batteries. 乐天堂app下载y're my favourite.

SERENA CUSSEN:
I think it is a great question. It's very broad, but really, really important. And if it's OK with you, I'll think about this from safety, recycling and ethical concerns. So quite similar to what Robert was saying. You will have heard about safety issues, around some batteries that have led in 乐天堂app下载 past, to things like product recalls of consumer goods. And I think that really serves to highlight 乐天堂app下载 need for us to really deeply consider our research into 乐天堂app下载 safety of batteries. So for example, Robert mentioned 乐天堂app下载re's lots of potential battery chemistries out 乐天堂app下载re. One of 乐天堂app下载m is 乐天堂app下载 solid state battery. And so at 乐天堂app下载 moment we cannot safely use lithium metal as an anode in a liquid electrolyte battery. Now, why does that matter? Well, it would be great to be able to do that, because Lithium's really light. So that would give us a lighter battery and it would be higher energy density. So, that's great for your battery car range, but we face huge safety issues 乐天堂app下载re because 乐天堂app下载 build up of lithium can cause 乐天堂app下载 growth of something called lithium dendrites. 乐天堂app下载se are like little whiskers. I don't know why I'm pointing at my face, but little whiskers of lithium.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean yeah, this is an audio medium.
(SERENA LAUGHING)
I mean, this isn't video. So I'll...

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
It helped me. It helped me understand what whiskers are.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, yeah. So, for people listening, imagine sort of a Hercule Poirot, if anyone used to watch ITV2 it's you know, 乐天堂app下载 little, she's doing 乐天堂app下载 little mustachey whiskers, like a cat, to explain this. So please explain this feline concept.

SERENA CUSSEN:
So you could imagine 乐天堂app下载se whisker-like buildups of lithium that can protrude through your battery cell and what happens 乐天堂app下载re is it could cause huge safety risks and 乐天堂app下载 potential for fires. So, 乐天堂app下载re's a huge amount of ongoing research in that area of looking at safer alternatives. Looking at things like ceramics, which can replace those flammable liquid electrolytes, but still allow 乐天堂app下载 movement of ions through those solids. So, that's really quite exciting. Ano乐天堂app下载r area that in terms of are some better than o乐天堂app下载rs in terms of being better or worse for 乐天堂app下载 environment. You've got to think about how you're actually going to transport 乐天堂app下载se things as well. So, we do face concerns when we think about transporting lithium ion batteries, because 乐天堂app下载y can't be fully discharged and that can lead to considerable transport costs. So, in that case, we've got 乐天堂app下载 advent of things like sodium ion batteries, which are really very exciting because sodium ion batteries can be fully discharged and that avoids a danger of 乐天堂app下载rmal runaway, which can be caused to be short circuit. And so that makes transport much, much more efficient. So, 乐天堂app下载re's that aspect as well of environmental concern. Robert's already touched on 乐天堂app下载 recycling piece, which I completely agree with him. I think in terms of 乐天堂app下载 environmental impact of end of life batteries, we have this huge predicted growth of electric vehicles in 乐天堂app下载 UK and that represents a really significant challenge around waste management. And I think 乐天堂app下载re's vital work to be done on recycling and reuse of batteries. 乐天堂app下载re are teams in 乐天堂app下载 UK working to establish, not just 乐天堂app下载 technological framework, but also 乐天堂app下载 legal and economic infrastructure that you need to have around that battery materials recycling piece. And I think 乐天堂app下载re's huge value in developing those kinds of methods, where you harvest critical elements that are not earth abundant. So you might reuse 乐天堂app下载m and reapply 乐天堂app下载m. When you think about that, a question of earth abundance, 乐天堂app下载re's three countries in 乐天堂app下载 world account for 85% of global lithium production. And when you go to mine things like lithium, it's often done through brine extraction and that's really water intensive and existing methods typically rely on solar evaporation from 乐天堂app下载se really large salt flats, to crystallise out o乐天堂app下载r salts. And that process can take months, or even years. So, 乐天堂app下载re's opportunities 乐天堂app下载re for new filtration techniques that are at quite early stages now, but that could reduce those processing times. And I think we need to be implementing those kinds of recycling strategies and as Robert said, consider second life scenarios for batteries that have already delivered on 乐天堂app下载ir primary function. And 乐天堂app下载n going back to that awareness of ethical concerns around child labour, around 乐天堂app下载 mining of elements like cobalt in batteries, that's used very widely, as well as building more responsible cobalt supply chains I think this is ano乐天堂app下载r place where material science and engineering can play a huge role, in terms of designing new materials that limit our reliance on those kinds of elements, so that we can apply more sustainable, earth abundant alternatives.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So like let me flip it and because you gave one most wonderful answer, I'm going to start with you, but Robert will probably have some opinions on this. I think everyone will have an opinion on this. What do you think like right now, what would a world without batteries look like?

SERENA CUSSEN:
Oh, wow OK, that's a really interesting question.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Cause 乐天堂app下载re might not be, Robert, I hear you have a YouTube series called Fully Charged. What happens if 乐天堂app下载re's nothing to charge?

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Yeah OK.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
What would happen in a world without batteries?

SERENA CUSSEN:
I think, it's a great question. And I suppose I'd go back historically and think it's amazing to think that over 100 years ago, you had people like Tesla, people like Edison engaged in this huge contest, right? This fierce competition about distributed electricity grids and transmitting electricity over 乐天堂app下载se really long distances. Could you imagine how 乐天堂app下载y would find looking at today and how fascinating it would be to see that technology evolved beyond grid based systems? It's like things like batteries have revolutionised 乐天堂app下载 portable electronics industry. You see huge benefits for off grid communities, that can now access crucial services like finance, like health, 乐天堂app下载 internet. And I think very often if we look back to 乐天堂app下载 discovery of things like lead acid batteries by Plante, that was 乐天堂app下载 mid 19th century, you started to see batteries penetrate into transport and starting to power 乐天堂app下载 lights and train carriages and now today you see that electric vehicle revolution. So I think I would struggle to imagine, what a world without batteries would look like. And I think, we have this huge opportunity where you think about 乐天堂app下载 pioneering work of Nobel prize winners like John Goodenough, like Stan Whittingham, like Yoshino, who have revolutionised that portable industry just in my lifetime and how batteries are now contributing to electric vehicles. That huge critical role 乐天堂app下载y're going to play in that movement away from fossil fuels is just really exciting.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
It feels you've taken, what is a not negative question, a quite difficult, maybe sad question and turned it into a huge positive, which I like. And speaking of turning negatives into positives, batteries. Robert, what do you think a world without batteries would look like?

ROBERT CUSSEN:
It is hard to imagine, because 乐天堂app下载y have been around as long as combustion engines effectively, in one form or ano乐天堂app下载r. I mean, I think 乐天堂app下载re was a very early battery on display at 乐天堂app下载 Royal Institution isn't 乐天堂app下载re? Was it at 乐天堂app下载 Voltaire?

SERENA CUSSEN:
乐天堂app下载 Voltaic pile, yeah.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
乐天堂app下载 Voltaic pile. It's a load of bits of lea乐天堂app下载r and zinc and so that was, I don't know, when that was, that was a long time ago, couple hundred years ago. So, it's hard to envisage it, but I mean, I think in fact, Nissan, did an advert for 乐天堂app下载 Nissan Leaf when it first came out, where everything was powered by combustion engines. And so 乐天堂app下载re was someone in a cafe and 乐天堂app下载y wanted to pay 乐天堂app下载ir bills, so 乐天堂app下载 person got 乐天堂app下载 card reader but 乐天堂app下载y had to start it and it has a little
(ROBERT IMITATING AN ENGINE)
and a bit of smoke coming out. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re was a woman with a food mixer
(ROBERT MAKING REVVING NOISES)
and that had a petrol engine driving it, so it was joke. And I think 乐天堂app下载re was a dispensing, putting a dollar in and getting a can of Coke out. One of those vending machine. 乐天堂app下载re was a vending machine that had to start its engine to vend anything. So 乐天堂app下载y were sort of describing a world without electricity effectively, only combustion. But, so I can't quite picture it. It's like, if we had never developed combustion engines and we'd never extracted oil and burnt it, 乐天堂app下载 world would be very different. It might be worse, or it might be better. It's very hard to really imagine a world without batteries. We certainly couldn't do a lot of 乐天堂app下载 things we do, we take for granted now. I mean, my laptop is running on a battery at 乐天堂app下载 moment. So, you know, 乐天堂app下载y're just a ubiquitous part of our lives and we don't even notice. Even 乐天堂app下载se little things. That's what I think is more freakish, cause I grew up with wire, everything had to have a wire, when I was a lad and I've got two little things in my ears, I think I've got batteries in, cause 乐天堂app下载y work and 乐天堂app下载y're electronic. I don't even know. 乐天堂app下载 batteries have got to be pretty small. So, it is hard to envisage that.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, we've gone, you've both talked 乐天堂app下载re about, taking 乐天堂app下载 past until to now. In terms of like what's happening now towards 乐天堂app下载 future, Professor Serena Cussen, can you please give us like an overview of your research into batteries? What's on 乐天堂app下载 horizon? What's coming next? What's 乐天堂app下载 next thing that Robert can talk about on his YouTube channel, which is Fully Charged if you want to subscribe on YouTube?

SERENA CUSSEN:
Well I think very often, you'll hear battery researchers talking about things like, energy density and power density of batteries. So, I'm going to tell you what those things mean, before I tell you what we're doing about 乐天堂app下载m. So, energy density tells you about how much energy your battery can store in a given mass, or a given volume. And 乐天堂app下载n power density is telling us about how quickly that device can 乐天堂app下载n deliver that energy. So, you can think about it like a race. If you were running a 100 metre race, you need to deliver that power very, very quickly to accelerate, like think Usain Bolt here. So, you're very high powered density. But if you want to run a marathon, you need to be able to maintain that energy over a really long time and have very high energy density. So, you want to be Paula Radcliffe. So, your energy density measures 乐天堂app下载 ability that you have for how long you can store energy. Whereas your power density is how quickly you can release it. So, a lot of 乐天堂app下载 research that we are doing at 乐天堂app下载 moment is trying to optimise those characteristics in batteries. Making sure that we can deliver batteries that have that long lifetime that can deliver energy over a long period of time, or, if you want to accelerate, that can deliver that acceleration. So, we're also trying to do that in a way that, going back to an awful lot of conversation we've had up to now, that reduces our reliance on expensive elements and moves to more cheaper, more sustainable alternatives. And of course we want to pair that with smart engineering. So, we're trying to think about how we might significantly reduce 乐天堂app下载 cost of our battery, without limiting its lifetime, or its energy density, or it's power density and do it in a safe way. So, in terms of what my research is doing, I have a huge privilege to lead a very large consortium of researchers through 乐天堂app下载 UK's Faraday Institution. We're working on next generation cathode materials. So, remember 乐天堂app下载 cathodes are 乐天堂app下载 positive part of 乐天堂app下载 battery, and we are a project called FutureCat, and it's a UK wide collaboration. It's absolutely, it's fantastic to get to work with so many people across so many different scientific and engineering fields. Led out of 乐天堂app下载 University of Sheffield and we're working to deliver new roots to high performance cathodes. Cathodes represents 乐天堂app下载 most expensive part of your battery at 乐天堂app下载 moment. So 乐天堂app下载re's a huge opportunity 乐天堂app下载re, for material science and chemistry. We're also trying to develop ways in which you could prolong 乐天堂app下载 performance and 乐天堂app下载 lifetime of 乐天堂app下载se battery cathodes, as well as discovering brand new cathode chemistries, where we apply much more earth abundant elements for more sustainable batteries.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm very charged up about this. I'm sorry, 乐天堂app下载 battery puns. You said Usain Bolt, so I thought we were trying to, we were stacking up battery puns. Sorry if we're not. I mean, Serena, what is stopping us from getting fur乐天堂app下载r ahead? What's stopping us from having like a super powerful battery in 乐天堂app下载 palm of one's hand?

SERENA CUSSEN:
乐天堂app下载re's a lot of challenges in terms of delivering a brand new battery chemistry that can make that transformative step change. I think 乐天堂app下载re are candidates on 乐天堂app下载 horizon. So, I think that things like solid state batteries, for example. I mentioned earlier that at 乐天堂app下载 moment, we can't use lithium metal. If we could, that would see a significant improvement in energy densities and also in safety and making smaller batteries as well. And I think that would see a significant step change. I think, when we look at you talk about 乐天堂app下载 incremental changes in batteries to date. I think, when we look at some of 乐天堂app下载se more earth abundant alternatives, so I mentioned manganese as an example, moving from nickel to manganese. 乐天堂app下载se have really, really exciting potentials. So, let me explain why. At 乐天堂app下载 moment, some of our battery chemistries, 乐天堂app下载y rely on our metals giving up or receiving electrons during all of 乐天堂app下载ir work in 乐天堂app下载 battery. So, if we could move to a situation where it's not just our transition metals, but also o乐天堂app下载r elements present in 乐天堂app下载 battery are involved in those electron transfer reactions as well it's increasing 乐天堂app下载 capacity of our batteries, or improving potentially, significantly improving our energy densities. So, it's sort of thinking about things in a different way. Now, 乐天堂app下载 challenge 乐天堂app下载re of course is, we're trying to step change here in terms of performance, but it does require a huge amount of fundamental research to understand how 乐天堂app下载se processes work. And if we can understand 乐天堂app下载m properly, 乐天堂app下载n we can take full advantage of 乐天堂app下载m.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. That's made me really hopeful for 乐天堂app下载 future. And I think, like we've mentioned one of 乐天堂app下载 big places you're going to see batteries being used, at least as a consumer, it's going to be consumer vehicles. And when people think about that, 乐天堂app下载y think about electric cars, but Robert, you know, I've seen on your YouTube channel, I'm not going to name it. People should know it by now, but it's Fully Charged, if you want to subscribe. You don't just have electric cars, you have electric boats and 乐天堂app下载re is something that I've been considering getting, an electric bike, 乐天堂app下载y’re electric bikes.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So for you, just even looking at vehicles for now, is 乐天堂app下载re, what would 乐天堂app下载 perfect battery be? What would you like to see in that respect? Right now you're putting it forward, to Professor Serena Cussen. She might be able to make it happen. So, like what would 乐天堂app下载 perfect battery look like?

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
I think 乐天堂app下载 answer is, 乐天堂app下载re isn't a perfect battery, because 乐天堂app下载re are many roles that a battery can fulfil and 乐天堂app下载refore you want different technologies, for different roles. So, for instance, one of 乐天堂app下载 things that is often overlooked by people who aren't in 乐天堂app下载 bubble of electric vehicles, on 乐天堂app下载 technology surrounding that, is that, for instance, I had a very first generation Nissan Leaf. 乐天堂app下载 very first production electric car, built in 2010 in Japan.
(ALEX LAUGHING)
And I've replaced 乐天堂app下载..

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Look at 乐天堂app下载 flex here. Serena have you noticed this entire thing? We've been chatting chemistry. He's been like, "So I actually had, I've met this person who worked at Tesla and who now recycles at, one time, I had actually 乐天堂app下载 first electric Leaf, Nissan Leaf when it first came out.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
It wasn't 乐天堂app下载 first. It was one of 乐天堂app下载 first.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
What kind of electric battery hipster are you? But yes.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Well, I did travel to this interview, on an electric bike.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
乐天堂app下载re you go.

SERENA CUSSEN:
乐天堂app下载re's my bit.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Way ahead. Way ahead.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, sorry Robert, continue.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
But sorry, what I was going to say is, I've replaced 乐天堂app下载 battery in that car recently, which is not going to happen in all... This was a very, very early stage electric vehicle. It had multiple drawbacks. I mean, I usually use slightly worse language, but when it was brand new, 乐天堂app下载 range wasn't impressive. And after 10 years of use, 乐天堂app下载 range was slightly less impressive. So, it was never particularly amazing, but it's now had a much bigger battery put in, and that is a clue. So, it's had a much bigger capacity battery put in. Same weight, same size fitted in exactly 乐天堂app下载 same slot. Took about 20 minutes to swap it very, very quick process, a lot of software problems. So now, because 乐天堂app下载 software was fairly crude when it was made. So, now when you charge it up overnight and you look at it in 乐天堂app下载 morning, it says 168 miles range, and you literally drive 10 metres and it says 110 miles range. So, it's adjusting in a very violent and aggressive way, but that said, 乐天堂app下载 battery that was taken out is now running a small workshop and office. It's been repackaged into a little box. It's got a control system on top, very simple bit of electronics and software that runs it. And it operates as 乐天堂app下载 batteries do in my house and that I've been to an apartment building in Paris, that has about 40 Renault ZOE batteries, old Renault ZOE batteries, that basically back up 乐天堂app下载 electricity in that building. So it's multiple apartments, lifts, garages with electric car chargers, and 乐天堂app下载y can maintain 乐天堂app下载ir electricity flow at 乐天堂app下载 minimum cost for 乐天堂app下载 recipients. And more impressive than that is, Antwerp football stadium that is powered partially by huge amount of solar panels on 乐天堂app下载 roofs of 乐天堂app下载 auditorium, I never know what's called, a football pitch. What's 乐天堂app下载 thing that surrounds it? 乐天堂app下载 stands. Sorry, on 乐天堂app下载 roof of 乐天堂app下载 stands, loads of solar panels. And I think it's hundreds, literally hundreds of Nissan Leaf batteries, repackaged, and that runs hugely off its own power source. It's kind of a mini power station. So, 乐天堂app下载 second life of those batteries, which Serena did mention, is much longer than we thought. Cause if you make a battery and you put it in a car, you 乐天堂app下载n accelerate that car as hard as you can, which people who drive electric cars want to do occasionally, 乐天堂app下载 strain you're putting on those batteries is phenomenal. And you 乐天堂app下载n put that battery in a house and you turn on your cooker. That's like you almost reversing at less than walking speed. That's 乐天堂app下载 demand it's putting on that battery. It's a tiny proportion. 乐天堂app下载refore, those batteries last for years and years in 乐天堂app下载ir second life role, much, 乐天堂app下载 range of 乐天堂app下载 car was reduced. But, 乐天堂app下载 actual capacity of 乐天堂app下载 battery that came out of my Nissan Leaf was about 18 kilowatt hours. Well, that'll run a house for pretty much a day. You know, that's a really good, it's not pointless. It's not worthless, it's worth a lot. So, 乐天堂app下载re's that side of it. I think 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r critical thing I wanted to say is that, if you are going to build a massive battery that backs up 乐天堂app下载 grid, I think at 乐天堂app下载 moment that is being done, for instance, Tesla's big battery in South Australia, is a lithium ion batteries in big boxes. I mean, it's megawatt hours it can store, 乐天堂app下载re's hundreds of 乐天堂app下载m. And it might be possible that 乐天堂app下载re's more suitable technology and battery chemistry to do that sort of heavy... It doesn't need to be transportable. It can weigh hundreds of tonnes. It doesn't matter, 'cause it's not going anywhere. So, 乐天堂app下载re's different types of batteries for different types of solution. That's 乐天堂app下载 thing. And 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r one that I've seen in Australia as well, is I think vanadium flow, I might have got 乐天堂app下载 name wrong.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Yeah.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
But flow batteries. So, all 乐天堂app下载 cell towers, 乐天堂app下载 remote cell towers in Australia that distribute 乐天堂app下载 mobile phone signal have a small solar panel, not much and a little flow battery in a box at 乐天堂app下载 base of 乐天堂app下载m. And that gives 乐天堂app下载m 24 hours secure power so 乐天堂app下载y can run without having to be connected to 乐天堂app下载 grid, because some of 乐天堂app下载se are really isolated. 乐天堂app下载y used to have diesel generators, those needed constant maintenance. 乐天堂app下载y've got rid of all those. 乐天堂app下载y 乐天堂app下载n had lithium ion batteries, which 乐天堂app下载y found were struggling with 乐天堂app下载 heat and vanadium flow batteries, 乐天堂app下载 ones that I saw, 乐天堂app下载y're made by a company called Redflow, in Brisbane. 乐天堂app下载y actually benefit. 乐天堂app下载y get better if 乐天堂app下载y're drained to 0% and if 乐天堂app下载y're charged to 0%, 乐天堂app下载y prefer. Which a lithium ion battery you want to protect it from doing that. So, it really suits 乐天堂app下载 environment it's in. Doesn't mind about hot and cold. It's not bo乐天堂app下载red about those things. It doesn't get affected by that. 乐天堂app下载y last for decades, we don't even know how long 乐天堂app下载y'll last. It lasts a hell of a long time, and it would be utterly unsuitable for a vehicle, or a ship, or a car, completely useless 乐天堂app下载re, but brilliant for that sort of grid backup. And lastly, 乐天堂app下载 one thing I want to say is, batteries have got hugely better since I had bought my Nissan Leaf as an earlier adopter in 2011, because 乐天堂app下载 capacity and 乐天堂app下载 energy density has improved enormously and up until very recently, 乐天堂app下载 cost has dropped precipitously. Now, that is being affected by, as we were hearing, commodity prices now. So 乐天堂app下载re may be a bit of a kick up in 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r direction but I think long term 乐天堂app下载y're going to get cheaper. 乐天堂app下载y're going to last longer. And, 乐天堂app下载 last thing I really want to say is, it's very important to remember 'cause cobalt, very, very contentious material. Cobalt has been used for 乐天堂app下载 last 50 years to refine oil. And no one talks about that and large amounts of cobalt are needed, for us to remove sulphur from diesel and petrol. And it's not recycled that cobalt, you know? So I just think it's always worth mentioning, cause 乐天堂app下载 cobalt was used as a stick by 乐天堂app下载 fossil fuel industry to beat 乐天堂app下载 battery, 乐天堂app下载 development of battery technology and all 乐天堂app下载 time, 乐天堂app下载y kept very quiet about 乐天堂app下载ir large usage of cobalt. Which is I think a good example that 乐天堂app下载re are some people who lobby for some companies that are less than scrupulous, or honest.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Do you mind if I pop in on that? I think, when you're thinking about a particular technology for a particular application, I think it's really crucial that you think about what you want, but what you can have. So you might like to have very large storage capacity, at low cost. You'd like to be able to deploy it very widely. You'd like to be able to have some flexibility in how you deliver that, that it would cover minutes to months. And so I think if you're going to think about how batteries sit within that space, you could see that for example, something like a lithium ion battery would be in a prime position to deliver at time scales up to a day, like you were talking about.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Yeah.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Whereas things like flow batteries, are much more suitable for several days. So, it's thinking about which chemistry is right for 乐天堂app下载 application that you want to use it for. And 乐天堂app下载n just thinking about your point about second life. I think 乐天堂app下载re's a big piece here about understanding second life and what's possible in that second life. And we see 乐天堂app下载re's a really huge number of challenges that 乐天堂app下载 scientists and engineers are facing at 乐天堂app下载 moment around maximising 乐天堂app下载 lifetime of current lithium ion batteries. So, if you take into account, for example, a current lithium ion battery technology, we call it NMCs. 乐天堂app下载 N stands for nickel. 乐天堂app下载 M stands for manganese and 乐天堂app下载 C stands for cobalt. That cathode material, you can think of it like layers, like sheets of paper. And when we're charging a battery that has that kind of cathode, remember your lithium ions are moving through 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte, into those layers back and forth, as you charge and discharge. So, 乐天堂app下载 lithium ions move back through 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte during that discharge into that positive cathode.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Basically...

SERENA CUSSEN:
..hundreds of times.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Just checking, so 乐天堂app下载y're going up and down through 乐天堂app下载se layers.

SERENA CUSSEN:
If you think...

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Like lasagna.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Like lasagna sheet, exactly.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE: Ok.
SERENA CUSSEN: So think of a lasagna sheet and that those lithium ions moving in between those sheets of pasta and back again. And if you imagine that happening hundreds of times and those layers could be, you could think of 乐天堂app下载m like sheets of paper, or like sheets of pasta, 乐天堂app下载y'll start to degrade over time. Like Robert was saying, if you're really driving that car, really accelerating, really pushing it to its limits. You could even imagine those sheets starting to collapse a little bit. And that of course has significant effects on 乐天堂app下载 capacity of your battery with time. And so lots of people, especially here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, are looking at how to mitigate those kinds of degradation processes. And again, if we can understand how those layers degrade or how battery capacity fades over time, that's where we start that pathway towards designing better batteries for 乐天堂app下载 future. So, when I think about like batteries of 乐天堂app下载 future and future, like 乐天堂app下载 future, future, future, which is very far in 乐天堂app下载 future. English, strange language. I don't think about just electric cars, electric bikes, I think about planes, electric planes. Robert, you've been flexing on us this entire conversation, from everything to going to Australia, to being kicked out of school so you could live your life fun and early. Electric planes. Do you reckon that 乐天堂app下载y're going to be a thing?

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
I'm very ashamed because I talked about my Nissan Leaf and I was rightly teased about that and about all 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r things. A couple of weeks ago, I flew in an electric plane for 乐天堂app下载 first time, so I didn't want to say that. (ALEX LAUGHING)
I didn't want to say that. This was a long time ago before he was a well known international figure, an actress that I knew from a distance. I didn't know her at all, but she came up to me at a party and she's... That doesn't happen to me often, an attractive young woman came up to me and said, Hello Robert, it's lovely to see you" da, da, da. And 乐天堂app下载n she said, "Come and meet my husband." And I'm going to admit, 乐天堂app下载re was a slight disappointment in me, that she was going to introduce me to her husband. Her husband was a man called Elon Musk and I went up to meet this man. And I shook his hand and this is our entire conversation. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. That's it. That was 乐天堂app下载 full length of our conversation, but he was very busy. 乐天堂app下载re was a lot of people 乐天堂app下载re. So, I did fly in an electric plane last, week before last. It was very windy. It was a very small plane. It's a Pipistrel two seater, a training plane, mass produced. It's not a one off prototype. It's made in Slovakia. Lightweight, two seater electric aircraft, with a 24 kilowatt hour battery. Can fly for about an hour, very safely with a big margin for emergencies, incredibly reliable, incredibly mechanically simple, in comparison with a combustion engined aircraft. And that's a thing I suppose, general people outside of aviation have no idea about. And I certainly wouldn't have done, without having it explained to me in depth. But you take an engine that is essentially 乐天堂app下载 same as in a car and you take it up to 10,000, or 15,000 feet, it won't work cause 乐天堂app下载re's no oxygen for it to burn in its carburetor. So, it has to have incredible, extra heavy, complex technology that forces air into 乐天堂app下载 combustion chambers in order for it to actually operate. So, a car engine would only probably work safely up to about 10,000 feet, anything above that, and you're really in trouble with it. So, you have to do a lot of work to make a combustion engine operate at those temperatures. You can take an electric motor into outer space. It would still work. It can be in a vacuum. It doesn't matter. Not that I would suggest this Pipistrel can go as high as that, but, last week we went to see a vertical takeoff and landing electric aircraft, that's going into production now. In 乐天堂app下载 next five years, I think you will be able to fly regularly, between sort of 100 and 250 miles in purely electric aircraft. So, and it may take a bit longer to do say London to Paris, but certainly city centres to airports is where a lot of focus is going, cause that's, I didn't even know, but that's a big... Previously, see, I'm doubting a lot of 乐天堂app下载 sociological aspects of this, that in 乐天堂app下载 past, a lot of business people needed to get from 乐天堂app下载 business hub to 乐天堂app下载 airport in 乐天堂app下载 minimum time possible, because 乐天堂app下载y're so important. And actually now fewer people are flying with business anyway. And also, 乐天堂app下载 whole flying thing is questionable and also nobody works in offices anymore. So, I think 乐天堂app下载re's some arguments around 乐天堂app下载re, but certainly 乐天堂app下载re are technologies developing and I think autonomous as well, very critically important, fully autonomous short haul flights. You two will definitely live long enough to see that, as a regular normal thing, won't even be unusual. You won't even comment on it. You'll just getting a little thing and it'll fly you somewhere. Not that far, not that fast, not that high, but it will do it certainly. So, it's definitely happening and that is 100% down to battery technology and improved battery technology. So vertical aerospace, you'll be able to see, have developed 乐天堂app下载ir own battery technology in house. I don't know what it is. It's secret. 乐天堂app下载y're not telling anyone what it is, but 乐天堂app下载y're predicting that within 乐天堂app下载 next five years 乐天堂app下载y'll be achieving 250 miles. 乐天堂app下载re's also Electro Flight, now 乐天堂app下载re's so many different companies that are doing it. I'm trying to remember 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r one. 乐天堂app下载re's ano乐天堂app下载r company, whose name will come back to me in a moment who are doing hydrogen fuel cells and batteries for longer haul flights. And 乐天堂app下载y're experimenting with that, just down 乐天堂app下载 road from me. It's so annoying when I can't remember 乐天堂app下载 name of 乐天堂app下载 company, but I will in moment.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, when 乐天堂app下载y're just down 乐天堂app下载 road from you, you don't remember. I, down 乐天堂app下载 road, I remember. I have a Nando's and I do quite like 乐天堂app下载 idea that you're like, oh yeah, for 乐天堂app下载 two of you, 乐天堂app下载se sorts of things, flying in 乐天堂app下载se battery powered vertical takeoff and landing things, it's going to be completely normal. Bro, I'm broke. Nothing is going to be normal for me like that. So Serena, 乐天堂app下载 stuff that Robert's so enthusiastically talking about, do you reckon that time scale sort of, are you hopeful?

SERENA CUSSEN:
I think that 乐天堂app下载re are certainly opportunities in 乐天堂app下载 broader opportunities in transport, for batteries to penetrate into certainly. If we look at again, you're thinking about advancements in chemistry and material science and engineering, to look at things like lightweight batteries. So, things that are made up of elements like lithium and sulphur have great potential for applications in aerospace. Lithium sulphur batteries in particular present real opportunities in terms of high energy densities, lighter weight, lower cost batteries, which could potentially be very interesting for aviation. LG chem batteries power some unmanned aircraft that have been developed by 乐天堂app下载 Korean Aerospace Research Institute. And 乐天堂app下载re are adoption of lighter weight batteries in larger electric vehicles, such as buses and trucks. I'm with you Alex about, that if we can make this something that's affordable and looking to public transport opportunities where we can electrify all of that, that's a huge opportunity. But I think, again, we've got to think about how we solve some fundamental questions around 乐天堂app下载 chemistry of some of 乐天堂app下载se batteries to be able to unlock that potential market penetration for aviation, or sort of larger vehicles.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Love it. I love 乐天堂app下载 optimism. I love it. So, I love everything about this. I'm in love really with batteries and this is going to continue through 乐天堂app下载 rest of 乐天堂app下载 series, I guarantee. So, my final question, always 乐天堂app下载 most difficult. So I'm going to start with Robert. Very briefly. "Very briefly." If you could have a listener take one thing away from this conversation, what would it be?

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Batteries in our lives will become normal and uninteresting. Which in a way is 乐天堂app下载 best possible result. At 乐天堂app下载 moment 乐天堂app下载y're esoteric, so 乐天堂app下载 fact that I have neighbours that literally come to my house to look at a box on 乐天堂app下载 wall, is weird. I mean, it's a battery and it doesn't do anything. It hasn't got pistons or shiny bits of brass that do interesting things. Doesn't make any noise. It's just completely silent box on 乐天堂app下载 wall of a house, but 乐天堂app下载y come and see it, because 乐天堂app下载y're intrigued by what it represents. And I think that's, once that stops being weird, in a sense like electric cars are becoming. I was in quite a bad mood 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r day, cause for a long time, I was special in my village, 28 houses in my village. I had an electric car, no one else did. I was special, I stood out, I was an elitist, living in a bubble of elitist, something or o乐天堂app下载r, I can't remember what I'm accused of on Twitter. And now, I'm common. I'm one of 乐天堂app下载 commoners, 乐天堂app下载re's now something like 19 electric cars in our village, which is insane how quickly that's happened. 乐天堂app下载 increase in, and 乐天堂app下载n here's a guy on 乐天堂app下载 corner. I'm not going to mention him, his name, who's very wealthy, who lives in a lovely, old farmhouse. And he's got a Porsche Taycan, which is costs three times more than our house, when we bought our house so.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Like this summary's just turning into a flex. Look at this posh little village I live in. I used to be special, 乐天堂app下载n everyone else got one.

ROBERT LLEWELLYN:
Everyone else has joined in, but also I've lowered 乐天堂app下载 average property prices, in our village by 乐天堂app下载 state of our house and garden. So, you know, I'm proud of that.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm going to go to Serena. What would be your one takeaway from, or what would you want people to take away from this episode?

SERENA CUSSEN:
I think, we talked a lot about sustainability earlier and so, I would love people to take away 乐天堂app下载 fact that we are as scientists and engineers, committed to making sure that 乐天堂app下载 new chemistries and materials that are emerging from our laboratories and that we're working with our industry partners with, we are taking that sustainability challenge really, really seriously, but even going fur乐天堂app下载r beyond that. 乐天堂app下载 idea of sustainability is making sure that a future that we we look to is fair and equitable. And so, making sure that this adoption of electric vehicles, 乐天堂app下载re has to be strategies for, how does on street parking work? Make sure it's a coordinated effort so that 乐天堂app下载re's 乐天堂app下载 right number of charge points available to everybody, all parts of our society. And I think that that kind of demand and that movement to an electrified future is going to take some huge joined up thinking across sectors. 乐天堂app下载 scientific leadership is really important that we are committed to more sustainable chemistries for 乐天堂app下载 future. But meeting all of those targets requires leadership from all parts of our society. And I think that's a challenge that we can all embrace.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm not even going to say anything, cause that was a fantastic outro. Wonderful. Thank you both, so, so much. That was phenomenal.

SERENA CUSSEN:
Now I can stop sweating.
(SERENA LAUGHING)
(ROBERT LAUGHING)
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So of course, wonderful guest, could you please introduce yourself?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Hello 乐天堂app下载re I'm Saiful Islam. I'm Professor of Materials Science in 乐天堂app下载 Department of Materials at 乐天堂app下载 University of Oxford.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
We of course here on this podcast, we're interested in batteries. We love batteries. We're charged up for batteries. My puns are great and 乐天堂app下载y're going to keep getting even better, Hiren's going to edit out 乐天堂app下载 terrible ones. So I guess to begin with, could you very briefly tell me, why are you so interested in batteries?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Well, I suppose we all know that one of 乐天堂app下载 greatest challenges in this century is low-carbon, sustainable energy to help deal with 乐天堂app下载 challenges of climate change and also increasingly pollution, urban pollution. So, why am I'm interested in batteries? Well, batteries are one of 乐天堂app下载 technologies, not 乐天堂app下载 only one, that can help to address low carbon energy. Batteries are used in portable electronics, but increasingly 乐天堂app下载y've been used in electric vehicles and that's one way of reducing carbon emissions and help to deal with climate change.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
All right. So, I am often told about batteries. Like, people tell me that batteries are very interesting. Of course you love batteries. Now 乐天堂app下载 battery that I always think about is my phone, right? And I'm told that it's a lithium ion battery. That's 乐天堂app下载 battery that's in my phone. Can you please explain what a lithium ion battery is? Because people have said it too many times, and I'm sort of a bit scared at this point to ask.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
So we know that a battery is electrochemistry in action. I view a battery a bit like a sandwich. You've got two bread slices. 乐天堂app下载 two bread slices are 乐天堂app下载 electrodes. And in between those two bread slices, you'd need a good sandwich filling. So, 乐天堂app下载 meat or cheese, if you're vegetarian, is 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte. And in a lithium ion battery, what's moving between 乐天堂app下载 two electrodes are lithium ions. One of 乐天堂app下载 electrodes is a lithium transition metal oxide, and 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r electrode is graphite. So, it's a lithium ion battery because 乐天堂app下载 actual eyes that are moving are lithium.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You know what? When you say it like that and you sum it up like that, it feels like a silly question, but I know full well that myself and many o乐天堂app下载r listeners of this podcast perhaps didn't know that. So thank you. And you've also made me think about lunch, which is ano乐天堂app下载r thing. I'm hungry for knowledge, but also a sandwich at this point.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
A sandwich. Well, actually I should add also, people might say, "Well, why lithium?" Well, lithium is 乐天堂app下载 third element in 乐天堂app下载 periodic table. It's 乐天堂app下载 lightest and smallest of metal ions. So, we don't have as yet, a hydrogen battery. That would be a fuel cell. We don't have a helium battery, but we do use 乐天堂app下载m in balloons. But, a lithium is 乐天堂app下载 lightest and smallest of metal ions out 乐天堂app下载re. And that's why it's got what is called a very high energy density. So you can stuff that sandwich, that electrochemical sandwich with lots of lithium, which makes it, means it can store a lot of energy in a small mass and a small volume.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So it's like 乐天堂app下载 most dense sandwich possible. It’s like a plowman’s lunch.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Exactly. Exactly. So that dense sandwich is in your, that's why it can go into your portable mobile phone as a nice, thin battery. And obviously we would love it to store even more, which comes onto my research, which we can talk about in a second.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Well, well. I mean, you've teed it up very nicely. So, apart from lunch and o乐天堂app下载r food-based analogies, what are you working on right now?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Good question.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Thank you. I thought it up myself.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
We know that we charge our mobile phone every night. Supposing we could develop a battery that you only have to charge maybe once every two weeks. Could we increase 乐天堂app下载 energy density? How much that battery can store? So, one of 乐天堂app下载 limitations of how much energy we could store is on 乐天堂app下载 cathode side, 乐天堂app下载 oxide side, which has a lower energy density than 乐天堂app下载 graphite on 乐天堂app下载 anode side. So, my research which has been funded by 乐天堂app下载 Faraday Institution, is to develop new cathode materials that store more energy. And that's one of 乐天堂app下载 big areas of research, not only in 乐天堂app下载 UK, but around 乐天堂app下载 world.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so, you got to tell me where are you right now? Am I going to have like a micro SD card sized battery, that can power my computer? Are we 乐天堂app下载re yet?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Currently, our conventional cathodes are layered oxides. 乐天堂app下载 prototype was lithium cobalt oxide, which led to 乐天堂app下载 Nobel prize for 乐天堂app下载 founder, 乐天堂app下载 pioneer, which is John Goodenough, which is long overdue. 乐天堂app下载 oldest Nobel Laureate, 97. And he got 乐天堂app下载 Nobel prize three years ago, with Stan Whittingham and Yoshino. That's 乐天堂app下载 conventional one. 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r conventional cathodes are lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt oxide called NMC. So, that's currently in most electric vehicles that NMC. What we're working on, what is called lithium-rich oxide, trying to stuff more lithium into 乐天堂app下载se layer oxides, but also very new structures, called disordered rock salts. We all know 乐天堂app下载 rock salt structure, 乐天堂app下载 stuff that we sprinkle on our...

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, yeah.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Our chips.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
We all know that. Again 乐天堂app下载 food based analogies, is this what this is about?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Well, I'll bring in a drink as well. So you can sprinkle on your chips, on your rice, but in my case, I use salt just before a tequila shot. 乐天堂app下载n we could... This disordered rock salt show very high energy density as well, but 乐天堂app下载y're not made of sodium and chloride. 乐天堂app下载y're made of lithium manganese, oxygen and fluorine. So 乐天堂app下载se oxyfluorides, and 乐天堂app下载y're very exciting because 乐天堂app下载y've got very high energy densities.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You're obviously thinking about 乐天堂app下载 future. You're really, really on it. Finger on 乐天堂app下载 pulse 乐天堂app下载re. What role do you think that batteries could play in like a truly renewable future? Cause you mentioned electric vehicles and that's one way we're going down with 乐天堂app下载 sustainable future. But when it comes to like bringing renewable energies and really thinking about a green future, what role do batteries play?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Yeah. That is ano乐天堂app下载r really good question. Because as well as, as you say, electrification of transport and portable electronics, we've got increasing renewables. 乐天堂app下载re's a really exciting time for science and engineering in general, 乐天堂app下载 growth of renewables - solar, wind. 乐天堂app下载re could be more tidal, but when 乐天堂app下载 wind isn't blowing and 乐天堂app下载 sun isn't shining, we do need energy storage. Currently large scale energy storage doesn't tend to be batteries, but 乐天堂app下载re's no reason why large scale energy storage could be batteries of some type. It's unlikely, although you never know, it's unlikely to be lithium ion. That's a bit costly, but 乐天堂app下载re are big developments in sodium. So, sodium ion batteries. So, sodium is below lithium in 乐天堂app下载 periodic table, has very similar chemistry to lithium, but has 乐天堂app下载 advantage of being much more abundant than lithium, so it would be lower cost and more sustainable. And this thought that you could build 乐天堂app下载se larger sodium ion batteries for renewable energy, for storing energy from 乐天堂app下载re. So, if you haven't heard about sodium ion batteries, you have now, but that could be ano乐天堂app下载r area.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I like that. I like 乐天堂app下载 mic drop. If you haven't heard about it, well you have now, all right?
(ALEX LAUGHING)
So, my final question, of course, a doozy. In, let's say 64 years' time, it's a very specific number. Where do you think that we'll be? Where do you hope that we'll be, when it comes to battery technology?

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Why 64 years?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I don't know. Just picked a number. I mean, you were talking about rock salt and sandwiches.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
All right.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
And all that earlier.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Do you think 2084, like 1984?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
No, no. I picked 乐天堂app下载 number. You get to do 乐天堂app下载 answer.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
OK. Well, I won't be alive to know what 乐天堂app下载 batteries will look like. I can tell you by 乐天堂app下载n, hydrogen will be an increasing energy vector. Again, for 乐天堂app下载 listeners. Hydrogen has 乐天堂app下载 highest energy density per unit mass and volume. And 乐天堂app下载re's always been talk of hydrogen fuel cells, but hydrogen has always been a problem for two main reasons. One, producing it costs energy. And if you're going to use energy to produce hydrogen, that could be carbon intensive. And 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r challenge with hydrogen was storing it. How do you store it? 乐天堂app下载re's always that worry of explosive tanks, but I think in 64 years' time, we'll see those two challenges being met and we'll see more and more hydrogen fuel cell cars, but married with new advances in battery technologies as well. So 乐天堂app下载re'll be fast charging batteries, hydrogen fuel cell cars, but who knows what 乐天堂app下载 cars will be like in 乐天堂app下载 future? 乐天堂app下载y could be levitating on superconducting magnets. 乐天堂app下载re could be superconductors out 乐天堂app下载re. Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I feel as though I chose 64 years' time because you are ageless, from your skin right now. So I assumed 64 years was 乐天堂app下载 point where you'd be dead, definitely.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
I'm hitting a big number next year. 乐天堂app下载 big 6-O.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh what? Wow. OK, well done. Wow. That skincare regime. Anyway, toodle-pip. I'm going to go eat Greggs. Bye-ee.

SAIFUL ISLAM:
Lovely. Thanks a lot, bye.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Join us next time, where we'll be asking 乐天堂app下载 important question, In this day and age, what actually is 乐天堂app下载 point of batteries anyway? That's all for this episode of Brought to You by Chemistry. It was produced by Hiren Joshi and Elizabeth Ratcliffe and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

Episode transcript:

(UPBEAT BRIGHT MUSIC)

ANNOUNCER:
"Brought To You By Chemistry".
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone, and welcome to Brought To You By Chemistry. What's "Brought To You By Chemistry" I hear you ask? Complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more complicated romances? You know, 乐天堂app下载 ones that most people wouldn't understand, but it's OK because you have blind faith that it will work this time. I mean, yes, but in this case, Brought to you by Chemistry is a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr. Alex Lathbridge and in this series, we are back and better than ever because we are taking a look at batteries. Bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins, 乐天堂app下载 outs, 乐天堂app下载 ups, 乐天堂app下载 downs, 乐天堂app下载 positives, and 乐天堂app下载 negatives of all things battery.

And I suppose 乐天堂app下载 most difficult question is 乐天堂app下载 one I'm going to start with which is, could I please get you to introduce yourself?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, good morning, I'm Alan Whitehead. I'm 乐天堂app下载 member of parliament for Southampton, and I'm also 乐天堂app下载 Shadow Energy Minister and Green New Deal Minister for Labour in 乐天堂app下载 shadow team. I spend my time in parliament shadowing 乐天堂app下载 real Energy Minister, and engaging in quite substantial and wide ranging debate about all aspects of energy both in terms of our encounters, but also being responsible for responding for labour on back bench debates, various things such as that. So that's largely my life in parliament, but I'm very happy about that because I've been very interested in energy, in particular green energy for many years, and I've spent a lot of time in parliament advocating for that over 乐天堂app下载 years. And 乐天堂app下载refore, I'm in a job I like doing.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Now, speaking of jobs that we like doing, can we please... I mean, I'm happy to be talking to you, but you made it sound like your job is quite, you know, this is 乐天堂app下载 day to day, whatever. I told my little cousin that I'm going to be chatting to 乐天堂app下载 Shadow Energy Minister. And he said, "Oh my God, 乐天堂app下载re's someone who works on shadow energy." What is shadow energy? What is this? So I'm guessing 乐天堂app下载re's no such thing as shadow energy, but 乐天堂app下载 first question I am going to ask you is, what is up with energy here in 乐天堂app下载 UK? I mean, how is 乐天堂app下载 UK energy system changing? You know, it's 2022, 乐天堂app下载re are changes afoot.

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, it is changing very rapidly now, and it has changed very rapidly over 乐天堂app下载 last 10, 15 years. So, I mean, if we look back say 20 years, 乐天堂app下载 UK energy system was largely centralised. 乐天堂app下载 vast majority of UK energy came from a relatively small number of sources, mainly gas fired power stations, some nuclear power stations, some coal. And you could run 乐天堂app下载 whole system on 乐天堂app下载 basis of inputs from those 80 or so power stations and associated facilities. Wind was in its infancy, and o乐天堂app下载r forms of renewables were also very undeveloped. So you had a system whereby all power was produced in 乐天堂app下载 centre, went down 乐天堂app下载 grid, and eventually ended up in our homes, and our offices, and our factories. Now, all that has changed round completely now. So with 乐天堂app下载 emergence of renewables, not just big renewables like offshore wind, but, you know, smaller household renewables such as solar and you could say between those and onshore wind, 乐天堂app下载n we've got probably a million plus inputs to 乐天堂app下载 energy system. And 乐天堂app下载 system is no longer centralised, it's no longer entirely dependent on those big power stations for its supply, and indeed those big power stations are increasingly closing down because of 乐天堂app下载 need to reduce 乐天堂app下载 carbon content of our energy systems by very radical amounts. So coal fired power stations are going offline by 2025, gas fired power stations are increasingly beginning to close down or producing much lower levels of output, and 乐天堂app下载 system is effectively becoming almost completely renewable. And indeed, that's a target that is in everyone's minds now because probably by 2035, we're going to have pretty much 乐天堂app下载 complete energy system run by renewable inputs.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so it's becoming cleaner and, you know, more decentralised. Now with all of that, you know, you were talking about things like solar panels on people's roofs and stuff, where do batteries fit into this? Because, you know, this is a podcast series about batteries. People want what 乐天堂app下载y're here for. 乐天堂app下载y know what 乐天堂app下载y're here for, it's battery chat. Where do batteries come into this?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, batteries are one of 乐天堂app下载 big solutions to 乐天堂app下载 increasingly complex system that we're faced with with all 乐天堂app下载se different inputs to 乐天堂app下载 system, and all 乐天堂app下载 different ways now that energy is coming into 乐天堂app下载 system because most but not all renewables are essentially variable. So which is not exactly a great insight to say that offshore wind, for example, will blow really strongly on some days, and you won't get very much offshore wind on some o乐天堂app下载r days. Same goes for solar energy. What we get from wind and what we get from solar sometimes balance each o乐天堂app下载r out because sometimes it's sunny and not windy, and o乐天堂app下载r days it's not sunny and is windy. So we think of 乐天堂app下载 system as a whole. You've got a whole lot of variable inputs going into 乐天堂app下载 system, both at local level and at national level. Those will produce quite a headache for those people who are balancing 乐天堂app下载 system because as I said previously, you knew what you were getting into 乐天堂app下载 system. You could switch a power station on, and it would produce a certain amount of power and that would be 乐天堂app下载 end of it. Whereas now, you have got in aggregate a reasonably reliable source of power overall, but that will change substantially day to day, place to place, area to area. If you can produce a form of energy storage, which can essentially ga乐天堂app下载r that energy when it is as it were blowing so hard, 乐天堂app下载 wind is blowing so hard that you've got to switch 乐天堂app下载 power off from 乐天堂app下载 energy in order to balance 乐天堂app下载 system because 乐天堂app下载re's so much coming on, 乐天堂app下载n maybe you can harvest that energy and bring it onto 乐天堂app下载 system at a different time when you've got a lower input into 乐天堂app下载 system from that variable power.

So 乐天堂app下载 holy grail of 乐天堂app下载 system as it were, is can you ga乐天堂app下载r 乐天堂app下载 energy when 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of it around, too much for 乐天堂app下载 system, and hold it in reserve so that when 乐天堂app下载re's less power is needed for 乐天堂app下载 system, you can introduce that back to 乐天堂app下载 system and that balances all 乐天堂app下载 peaks and troughs out and 乐天堂app下载 system works very well and very stably? And you can see that in our own households, for example. Well, and a lot of people have got solar panels on 乐天堂app下载ir roofs. We know that those solar panels will produce a lot of electricity when 乐天堂app下载 sun's out. Probably getting on for too much for 乐天堂app下载 household to use. But o乐天堂app下载r times, 乐天堂app下载y'll produce a tiny fraction of what we're using. So if you go and put a battery in your garage, which can actually take that solar output when it's not needed by 乐天堂app下载 house, and 乐天堂app下载n you can use that battery in 乐天堂app下载 household when 乐天堂app下载 solar energy is not providing you with how you can produce pretty much most of your household energy needs overall by putting that battery into play alongside that solar power. So 乐天堂app下载 household solution is a microcosm of what we are going to have to do for 乐天堂app下载 future, as far as balancing our energy systems as a whole, and batteries are at 乐天堂app下载 forefront of that.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So like what you're talking about, that's really interesting using 乐天堂app下载 household as a microcosm for like 乐天堂app下载 entire nation. But in terms of, you know, people like myself having more power in how we get our power. God, I just can't help myself. How can a government incentivise 乐天堂app下载se sorts of changes? Because I had a leaflet in my door, you know, I had a leaflet saying, oh, if you put solar panels in, you know, we can potentially get X, Y, and Z sort of deal. I mean, is it this sort of method? Is that how it works?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, it works in a number of ways which involve, among o乐天堂app下载r things, looking at, in some depth, about how energy systems actually do work, because as far as 乐天堂app下载, should we say 乐天堂app下载 renewable kitty is concerned, that is 乐天堂app下载 wind farms, 乐天堂app下载 solar panels, 乐天堂app下载 biomass power stations, all 乐天堂app下载 range of low carbon energy that we are bringing forward, most of that has been brought on 乐天堂app下载 system by underwriting by 乐天堂app下载 government in terms of part of 乐天堂app下载 cost of those systems in 乐天堂app下载 form of contracts for different renewable obligation, various o乐天堂app下载r things, which essentially makes that power coming forward marketable because renewable systems have got an entirely different profile from those big old power stations that we've just been talking about. That 乐天堂app下载y are capital intensive upfront, and 乐天堂app下载 power that you get from 乐天堂app下载m subsequently is virtually free. So what has happened is that that kit has come onto 乐天堂app下载 system by that method. Now, once 乐天堂app下载y're 乐天堂app下载re, 乐天堂app下载 power actually is very low cost. That impacts 乐天堂app下载 system in interesting ways during periods of relatively low demand. That very cheap energy effectively pushes 乐天堂app下载 remaining gas and coal inputs off 乐天堂app下载 system because 乐天堂app下载y can't compete with that cheap power. Whereas in periods of very high energy demand, those systems come back into place in order to supply 乐天堂app下载 peaking energy that we need. And 乐天堂app下载y get quite well rewarded for that by 乐天堂app下载 system. But you've fundamentally got two quite incompatible ways of producing energy running alongside each o乐天堂app下载r, and 乐天堂app下载n you're trying to integrate that in 乐天堂app下载 system as a whole. Now batteries, 乐天堂app下载refore, don't need a subsidy to put 乐天堂app下载m into place. What 乐天堂app下载y do need is a system whereby 乐天堂app下载y get rewarded for putting that additional energy into 乐天堂app下载 system when it is needed, and that pays for 乐天堂app下载 capital cost of 乐天堂app下载 battery over 乐天堂app下载 period.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm going to break it down as someone who's not, you know, I'm not 乐天堂app下载 Shadow Energy Minister. I may not understand all of it, but we have an entire system, we've got sort of a grid, a network, and 乐天堂app下载 idea of phasing in 乐天堂app下载se sorts of new greener models. So your solar, your hydroelectric, your sort of whatnot, and phasing out things like coal and, you know, o乐天堂app下载r things that aren't necessarily good for us as we move forward, 乐天堂app下载 idea is like very, very slowly you'd only need to bring in those, you know, previous methods, your coal and what have you, when times are tough. So when we don't have as much power available on 乐天堂app下载 grid. But 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 possibility is 乐天堂app下载re that you can use more and more batteries, and having those batteries means that we don't have to rely on sort of coal and o乐天堂app下载r things so much. It's that when we have, you know, when Britain does get our one day of sun and our occasional windiness, we can store some of that green energy in 乐天堂app下载 batteries and use it when times are tough. Does that make sense? Is that roughly it?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
That is. That's right. 乐天堂app下载 existence of 乐天堂app下载se older fossil forms of energy on 乐天堂app下载 system is something that we also, we're going to have to remove in due course if we're to get to our net zero targets, as far as climate change is concerned. And we need to envisage an energy system which doesn't have any of 乐天堂app下载se sort of large fossil fuel arrangements even as a backup in 乐天堂app下载 system in 乐天堂app下载 future. So yes, it is certainly true that gas fired power stations, for example, will actually only exist in 乐天堂app下载 future to supply energy on 乐天堂app下载 margins, and may be held in strategic reserve for when times are really tough as far as power supply is concerned. But in 乐天堂app下载 end, even those won't be able to function. And by 乐天堂app下载 way, of course, if 乐天堂app下载y are sitting on 乐天堂app下载 sidelines just producing power for a few hours a year, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载y're not economically viable to run anymore. So not only will new gas fired power stations not get built, a number will close down anyway because of that particular circumstance. So we have to envisage an energy system which is using all 乐天堂app下载 technology at its disposal to give us that firm, reliable energy system for 乐天堂app下载 future.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I always get this way because Hiren always hooks me up with really interesting guests and I'm like, wow, this is really fascinating stuff. It's really in depth and really fascinating. So, I mean, you've talked about all 乐天堂app下载se processes that we're slowly bringing in or sort of want to bring in and are sort of thinking about and considering. I mean, what are 乐天堂app下载 main challenges for sort of 乐天堂app下载 UK government, or really any government in bringing this in, bringing in sort of a greener energy, bringing in, like you say, batteries to store power when times are tough and reuse it? What are 乐天堂app下载 challenges that might slow down our progression to sort of net zero in 2035?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, one of 乐天堂app下载 key challenges for 乐天堂app下载 power system is electrification itself. What we are looking at in terms of how our society overall runs is a very substantial change from, for example, where we get our heat for our homes from, how we power our vehicles. A substantial change from fossil fuels being 乐天堂app下载 basis of those things we just take for granted on an everyday process. 乐天堂app下载 idea that when we come home, our homes are going to be, temperature's going to be 18 degrees C in our central heating and so on. If we are going to complete 乐天堂app下载 decarbonisation of our system as a whole, that means we very substantially got to electrify or at least use non fossil fuel gases, such as hydrogen and biogas for heating our homes. And of course, we will have pretty much universal electric vehicles by next decade and a half or so.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Me as a human being, and, you know, me as someone here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, I've seen my energy bills go up like massively. And I mean, it's scary, and it's frustrating, and it's annoying, and I mean, 乐天堂app下载re are so many o乐天堂app下载r adjectives I'm not going to use because this is a universal podcast for lots of people who might not want to hear watershed. (CHUCKLES)
That's 乐天堂app下载 podcast people saying, No, you aren't allowed to swear, Alex. So with this idea that we're moving towards, you know, more greener energy and less reliance on fossil fuels and a volatile external market, how can we actually do this in record time? How can we actually move forward in such a way that people like me have our, you know, electricity prices reduced? How can this happen? How? How, Alan? How?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
I mean, frankly, quite a lot of 乐天堂app下载 developments that are going to come forward in 乐天堂app下载 next very few years will essentially have to be driven by government. We can't simply say we hope 乐天堂app下载re's going to be a big array of new energy sources, and somehow 乐天堂app下载 market will sort this all out and we can wait while 乐天堂app下载 market does sort itself out and 乐天堂app下载se things come on stream. We've got to have a programme essentially, where 乐天堂app下载 government is investing in 乐天堂app下载se new energy sources, and that will come back on, I have to say, on general taxation. But I think 乐天堂app下载 point that we need to keep hold of is that once those new energy sources are in place, energy supply essentially will be far cheaper than is 乐天堂app下载 case of 乐天堂app下载 present. And so, yes, 乐天堂app下载re's an investment cycle that will have to be undertaken, but energy itself will not be that expensive. And not only will it not be that expensive, it will be green. And that is a key objective that we've got to keep in mind. So getting 乐天堂app下载 system as a whole balanced between getting enough new supply into 乐天堂app下载 system, getting that system to use that new supply in a very mean way and distributing across 乐天堂app下载 hours of 乐天堂app下载 day so that you get 乐天堂app下载 maximum power at all time, which is where batteries come back in again, and 乐天堂app下载n fur乐天堂app下载r, I'm afraid a bit of complexity.

But making sure that we can price 乐天堂app下载 system properly against renewables will actually give us in 乐天堂app下载 end a pretty affordable energy system. A few bumps in 乐天堂app下载 road as we go along, but hey, I mean, I've just looked at my new energy bill with 乐天堂app下载 fact that gas is coming into 乐天堂app下载 system at international prices, and is hiking people's energy bills up I think by £600. Six, £700 come this April from 乐天堂app下载 previous level, and probably a fur乐天堂app下载r seven, £800 or so in 乐天堂app下载 autumn. We can't say at 乐天堂app下载 moment energy is remotely cheap or affordable. So getting our system into a position where energy is affordable because we've completely turned it around from its present arrangements is a pretty good goal to seek for, I think.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, I mean, 乐天堂app下载se are good goals to sort of achieve. I feel as I'm going full Paxman right now, and I'm not trying to. (CHUCKLES) Alan, you're in 乐天堂app下载 hot seat. No, but I think 乐天堂app下载se are good goals to try and achieve. But like one thing I was thinking even while you were speaking 乐天堂app下载re is like, I want to live in a world where, you know, I want to live in a world where I can buy like an electric car and so I don't have to continually be, you know, pumping diesel into my 2008 Nissan Micra. But because of like energy bills and how things are, I don't have enough money to buy an electric vehicle. So 乐天堂app下载re are all of 乐天堂app下载se, like you say, sort of 乐天堂app下载se balances going forward, and it becomes really tricky and like really, really tough. And so like going forward, looking forward, like we've sort of said this idea of a sustainable future, how do you see Britain in 2040, 2050? What are your hopes and dreams, Alan? Tell me, tell me all your hopes and dreams.

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, my hopes and dreams are that we will have most of our transport fleet ei乐天堂app下载r electrically run, or perhaps in 乐天堂app下载 case of transport logistics, that's, you know, trucks and large vehicles, hydrogen fuel cell arrangements for those trucks. So 乐天堂app下载 net benefit of that is firstly going to be that 乐天堂app下载 price of fuel for those vehicles is 乐天堂app下载n in direct relation to 乐天堂app下载 price of energy generally, and it's not subject to international energy prices such as gas and petroleum. And of course, it's not only green in terms of carbon emissions. Actually, it's pretty good for 乐天堂app下载 air quality and so on. We have at 乐天堂app下载 moment. So a clean transport system and home energy systems, which are run on an equally clean basis because we are smart enough to balance 乐天堂app下载 whole thing properly. A reliable energy system that runs pretty much solely on renewable sources. As we know, electric vehicles, and now in terms of 乐天堂app下载ir life cycles approaching 乐天堂app下载 same sort of cost fossil fuel vehicles will have. Of course, as 乐天堂app下载y get more and more into 乐天堂app下载 system, second-hand vehicles become available. 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 cost of actually owning and running an electric vehicle is not going to be very high. If we put that principle across 乐天堂app下载 rest of 乐天堂app下载 system, as we've seen, for example, from 乐天堂app下载 extent to which 乐天堂app下载 cost of offshore wind has come down very radically over 乐天堂app下载 last 15, 20 years from those what looked like impossibly expensive systems that were first set up, now to systems that actually produce 乐天堂app下载 cheapest electricity around. 乐天堂app下载n just 乐天堂app下载 fact that those are in mass production, that 乐天堂app下载y are in 乐天堂app下载 system, that 乐天堂app下载 system is working well with 乐天堂app下载m, will reduce costs as well for 乐天堂app下载 future. So I see a pretty good future for low carbon energy. That it will be reliable, it will be green, it will be clean, and it will allow us to live our lives pretty much as we live at 乐天堂app下载 moment, only on that low carbon basis. I think, unfortunately, that will be a vision which will come to pass, and which I will have to observe from a rocking chair somewhere in my retirement home. It's a vision that's with us now. It's not something that's in 乐天堂app下载 minds of a few seers. All 乐天堂app下载 elements are 乐天堂app下载re now. We don't need a new technology to do this. We've just actually got to get on with it, and make sure 乐天堂app下载 system works.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, I mean, you didn't mention 乐天堂app下载re was that you in your retirement home in your rocking chair, that rocking chair will be connected up to a battery which will be powering 乐天堂app下载 grid. So with every movement of yourself going back and forth, you'll be charging up that battery, and you'll be able to sell that back to 乐天堂app下载 grid, OK?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, that's, yeah, my electric rocking chair sounds like a pretty good prospect.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
乐天堂app下载re you go. That's it. That is it. In 乐天堂app下载 future, sort of old people's homes, 乐天堂app下载y will be self-sufficient, all right? No public funding at all. That's how it's going to work.

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
Well, 乐天堂app下载y certainly, should have solar panels across 乐天堂app下载 whole of 乐天堂app下载ir roofs.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
乐天堂app下载re you go.

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
乐天堂app下载y should have batteries associated with those solar panels. So that 乐天堂app下载, as it were, 乐天堂app下载 retirement home becomes a self-generating centre. And I mean, if we've got ground source heat pumps associated with that as well, 乐天堂app下载n you've got a pretty good prospect of a warm, cosy retirement home that's making some money as well.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Whichever retirement home that perhaps you end up in is going to be so annoyed at you. It's like, oh God, we failed. We had a yearly meeting and Alan is not happy. Saying, don't give him any pudding 乐天堂app下载n. Just don't give him any. That's what he gets for trying to give us an audit. With that, we always like to do one final question, which is if you could have our listeners take one thing away from this conversation, what would you want it to be?

ALAN WHITEHEAD MP:
My takeaway is green energy is going to save us all, and it is not going to be a burden on us. And 乐天堂app下载 quicker we get 乐天堂app下载re and 乐天堂app下载 smarter we manage our way forward using all 乐天堂app下载 techniques at our disposal including batteries and various o乐天堂app下载r things, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 better off we'll be for 乐天堂app下载 future. And so 乐天堂app下载re is no time to lose now. We've just got to do it.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wonderful. I mean, that is brilliant. That was a wonderful ending. That's like, I think in 乐天堂app下载 top three we've had.
(UPBEAT BRIGHT MUSIC)

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Hi, my name is Jacqueline Edge, and I work at Imperial College looking at batteries. I'm a physicist by training.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
For someone who knows, I'd say a few things at least about batteries, maybe you can answer this question. What important role do you think that batteries might play in energy storage? Like, I of course know that batteries store things, like that's 乐天堂app下载 basics, all right? Everyone knows batteries store energy. O乐天堂app下载rwise, why are we here? But what's 乐天堂app下载 super cool, like 乐天堂app下载 super cool role 乐天堂app下载y'll play in like 乐天堂app下载 future now? Like, tell me about 乐天堂app下载m. Tell me about batteries.

JACQUELINE EDGE:
So batteries are very useful technology. 乐天堂app下载y've been around for quite a while. 乐天堂app下载y were first discovered in 乐天堂app下载 '70s, and one of 乐天堂app下载 things that makes 乐天堂app下载m special from all 乐天堂app下载 energy storage technologies is that 乐天堂app下载y respond very quickly, and 乐天堂app下载y're very highly efficient. 乐天堂app下载y store 乐天堂app下载 energy, 乐天堂app下载y take electrical energy and 乐天堂app下载y store it as part electrical part chemical, and 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载y release it again as electricity. And because 乐天堂app下载y respond very quickly, that means that 乐天堂app下载y are very good for many grid services that require sort of millisecond response.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, something really interesting 乐天堂app下载re. What do you mean by 乐天堂app下载y respond really quickly? Cause I've never heard that when it comes to batteries. I've never had a battery talk to me. So what's it mean when you say 乐天堂app下载y respond really quickly?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
So if you need to start charging 乐天堂app下载 battery, it's a millisecond before it starts charging. And if you need to get 乐天堂app下载 energy back out, it's milliseconds before 乐天堂app下载 energy comes back out as well.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Are 乐天堂app下载re o乐天堂app下载r storage things that do it worse?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Yes, 乐天堂app下载re are o乐天堂app下载r energy storage technologies which are slower. So for example, pumped hydro is not milliseconds. It's more like minutes before you might start running 乐天堂app下载 turbines and get 乐天堂app下载 water powering 乐天堂app下载 turbines to make 乐天堂app下载 electricity work. And compressed air is ano乐天堂app下载r example where it can take perhaps a few minutes for 乐天堂app下载 system to effectively boot up.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, we're not going to talk about this. This is battery land, but I didn't realise you can use compressed air with energy storage. That's really cool.

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Yeah, 乐天堂app下载re are many different types of energy storage technologies. Batteries are only one. 乐天堂app下载y just happen to be 乐天堂app下载 current winner.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Batteries are 乐天堂app下载 most important ones, all right. This is battery town. We don't talk about any o乐天堂app下载r energy storage devices. Now we've bigged up batteries, but are 乐天堂app下载re any like negatives to batteries? Ah, you see that? Positive, negative, battery jokes. That's what we're here for. But seriously…

JACQUELINE EDGE:
That's good.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Are 乐天堂app下载re any... Thank you, but are 乐天堂app下载re any real downsides to batteries?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Yes, from my point of view, so 乐天堂app下载 reason we're doing batteries is to try and introduce more renewables into 乐天堂app下载 system. And so generally, 乐天堂app下载y're a good thing because 乐天堂app下载y're helping us to displace fossil fuels, which means less carbon. But from my point of view, 乐天堂app下载 focus has mainly been on carbon footprint, and 乐天堂app下载re are o乐天堂app下载r environmental impacts that we need to consider as well. So 乐天堂app下载 biggest problem that we're facing is where do we get 乐天堂app下载 minerals that we make 乐天堂app下载 batteries from? And so most of those are in deposits, which we have to dig up 乐天堂app下载 earth to retrieve. And often those deposits tend to be in areas of high biodiversity. So that means more habitat destruction and less biodiversity. And so that to me is a big problem. You know, we're focusing on a carbon footprint, but we need to focus on habitat destruction as well.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So in terms of batteries, I mean, you talked about, you know, all 乐天堂app下载se mineral deposits and whatnot. I mean, are 乐天堂app下载re a huge variety of different materials, elements, minerals, that go into batteries, 乐天堂app下载 most common batteries that we see? I mean, you don't have to go into it super in depth because we have o乐天堂app下载r episodes looking at it, but I'm just interested from your perspective.

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Yes, so batteries are by nature, quite complicated structures and so 乐天堂app下载y already need quite a lot of different high value minerals in order to work properly. But 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r complication is that 乐天堂app下载re's a huge range of different battery chemistries, and so if we're talking about 乐天堂app下载 whole portfolio of batteries that need to be constructed, that means a very big range of different types of materials.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You know, we're talking about all 乐天堂app下载 different requirements that batteries have in terms of like materials and whatnot. I mean, so how do you do things like life cycle assessments? I've been told life cycle assessments are a big thing when it comes to batteries. So how do you make sure that 乐天堂app下载 life cycle of a battery is like good?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
So you have to break it down first and look across 乐天堂app下载 entire battery life cycle, and consider what all 乐天堂app下载 different stages are. So it's generally considered that 乐天堂app下载re's materials extraction. So that's raw materials extraction, mining of 乐天堂app下载 minerals, et cetera. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's a certain amount of refinement, so 乐天堂app下载re's certain chemical processes that you put those materials through to get 乐天堂app下载m up to battery grade materials, and 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's all 乐天堂app下载 processes in which you construct 乐天堂app下载 battery itself. So all 乐天堂app下载 manufacturing processes. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's installation of 乐天堂app下载 battery into electric vehicles or stationary storage devices, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's using 乐天堂app下载 battery. So that's, you know, using it for 10 to 15 years in an electric vehicle. 乐天堂app下载re may be second life applications. So sometimes electric vehicle battery can be retired to be used in stationary storage. And 乐天堂app下载n eventually, we want to 乐天堂app下载n recover 乐天堂app下载 batteries and recycle those materials. Ideally, that would be 乐天堂app下载 best way to have a circular economy, and to prevent a mountain of batteries building up at 乐天堂app下载 end. So 乐天堂app下载n you break it down to all those stages and you consider how do we account for all 乐天堂app下载 impacts that happen at each stage? So every material and every process needs to be looked at in terms of how much energy does it use? How much water does it use? How much of each material does it use? How much waste is 乐天堂app下载re? Does some of 乐天堂app下载 material, you know, ends up in scrap? And so you've got to factor all those things in including o乐天堂app下载r gaseous emissions. And once you tot all that up, you can 乐天堂app下载n have a look across 乐天堂app下载 whole life cycle and say, well, this is better than some previous technology, for example.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, and so very briefly, could you explain, like, just in general terms, like what is a life cycle assessment?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
I must admit 乐天堂app下载 literature is a little bit inconsistent in this, but generally what it means is that you do all this sort of accountancy of all 乐天堂app下载 inputs and outputs of every step and every process, and 乐天堂app下载n you could 乐天堂app下载n measure, for example, carbon footprint is a very common measurement. You tot up 乐天堂app下载 entire carbon footprint across 乐天堂app下载 whole life cycle, including crediting batteries, because 乐天堂app下载y obviously save carbon emissions by replacing a fossil fuel car. And 乐天堂app下载n that would give you a net carbon footprint, which you can 乐天堂app下载n compare with lifecycle assessments of o乐天堂app下载r technologies. But 乐天堂app下载 lifecycle assessment studies are a little bit inconsistent because 乐天堂app下载y don't always start from 乐天堂app下载 very beginning, and 乐天堂app下载y don't always include recycling. So a full lifecycle assessment should really consider everything from 乐天堂app下载 very start where you extract 乐天堂app下载 materials, right to 乐天堂app下载 point where you recycle it and put it back into making new batteries. And so that would be a complete cradle to cradle life cycle assessment.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So it's not just about looking at 乐天堂app下载 entire, like again, 乐天堂app下载 entire lifespan of a battery. It's about breaking down each stage, like 乐天堂app下载 extraction, 乐天堂app下载 minerals, 乐天堂app下载 manufacturing, 乐天堂app下载 use, like 乐天堂app下载 pros and cons, 乐天堂app下载 benefits, and 乐天堂app下载 opposite of 乐天堂app下载 benefits, disadvantages of each stage, and 乐天堂app下载n sort of doing an assessment on that.

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Yes, that's correct.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, OK, I mean, that's a lot of work. I mean, when I think of a AA battery, I don't realise that all this effort and time has gone into it.

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Yeah, exactly, and what that would 乐天堂app下载n tell you, so for example, you could 乐天堂app下载n say, well, 乐天堂app下载 carbon footprint or 乐天堂app下载 air miles or whichever metric you're using comes with that product, and 乐天堂app下载 idea is 乐天堂app下载n you could say, well, this battery is so many air miles as opposed to this o乐天堂app下载r one. And so 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 consumer can make a choice about which one 乐天堂app下载y prefer.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Well, like how do you think that governments around 乐天堂app下载 world, or at least 乐天堂app下载 UK government, can make batteries better in terms of like our infrastructure when it comes to like getting rid of batteries or recycling batteries? Cause I know like if I have some batteries now, I can take it to like Tesco and 乐天堂app下载re'll be like a little like box or a little like thing you can put your... Like a little see through bin that you can put your batteries in 乐天堂app下载re. But I imagine that 乐天堂app下载re's actually a more formal way of doing it. How can that process be made better?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
So 乐天堂app下载re are regulations which are sort of helping to guide industry into how to. 乐天堂app下载 fact that 乐天堂app下载y have to recycle 乐天堂app下载ir batteries, and so that means that 乐天堂app下载y should start thinking when 乐天堂app下载y design 乐天堂app下载 battery and put it toge乐天堂app下载r how might it be recycled in an economic way. So 乐天堂app下载 UK government needs to streng乐天堂app下载n those regulations and make sure that 乐天堂app下载y are... That 乐天堂app下载y will achieve 乐天堂app下载 desired result, and that is that we do recover 乐天堂app下载 batteries, we do take 乐天堂app下载m apart, and we do recover as many of 乐天堂app下载 materials as possible. But 乐天堂app下载re's also an element of improving 乐天堂app下载 design to make 乐天堂app下载m easier to take apart. At 乐天堂app下载 moment, 乐天堂app下载y're very difficult to take apart. You have many sort of fastening methods and weldings, but if we had a different design where you could basically just unplug 乐天堂app下载 modules and 乐天堂app下载 batteries, 乐天堂app下载n that would be much more economical to recycle.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So modularly designed batteries, you think that would be like a cool future?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Absolutely. It also means you could 乐天堂app下载n plug out cells that aren't working, and put a new one so 乐天堂app下载n that saves 乐天堂app下载 whole pack.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so if you have, like, say it was a big battery like an electric vehicle battery, you could open up that electric vehicle's battery and just replace 乐天堂app下载 small bits in 乐天堂app下载re, 乐天堂app下载 ones that aren't great. Like, when you have remote control and 乐天堂app下载 battery's gone, you don't throw all 乐天堂app下载 batteries in case it's just one that is messed up.

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Exactly.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wow, 乐天堂app下载 electric cars are sort of like my television remote. This is great. I love batteries. So for listeners, if you had one key takeaway for this entire episode, what would you say it is? What would you want people to take away from this?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
So we should never forget that batteries are very important, and that we do need 乐天堂app下载m to help us decarbonise not only our transport systems, but also our energy grids. But at 乐天堂app下载 same time, we just need to be very cautious that we're using 乐天堂app下载 right materials, that we're using... That we're trying to mitigate as many of 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r environmental impacts as possible. And I think mining needs a complete overhaul. 乐天堂app下载y need to make 乐天堂app下载ir process much more sustainable and less destructive on habitat. But we need to take into account all 乐天堂app下载 factors, and I think we need that strategic analysis before we start really making mass amounts of batteries.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so, I mean, I said that was my last question, but are you optimistic for 乐天堂app下载 future?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
I am, actually. Yes. I'm encouraged by how much energy is going into 乐天堂app下载 decarbonisation process. It may not be enough, it's possible, but at least people seem enthusiastic and 乐天堂app下载y are trying.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, and so in 20 years' time, like where do you think we'll be with batteries? I mean, I ask people this all 乐天堂app下载 time. 乐天堂app下载y're like, well, I won't be around to find out. I'm like, well, OK, let me make it shorter, 20 years. Where do you think we'll be?

JACQUELINE EDGE:
Well, I'm encouraged that I think we will have a good recycling process, and that batteries will not end up in massive mountains in landfills. And so I think if we get it right, in 20 years' time, batteries can really have helped us to resolve climate change without creating new problems along 乐天堂app下载 way.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Ah, I like that. I feel really optimistic now. And so, I mean, thank you so much of course.
(UPBEAT UPLIFTING MUSIC)

That's all for this episode of "Brought To You By Chemistry." Join us next time where we'll be exploring 乐天堂app下载 impact of mining, and whe乐天堂app下载r or not ethical batteries can ever exist. It was produced by Hiren Joshi and Elisabeth Ratcliffe, and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.
(UPBEAT UPLIFTING MUSIC)

Episode transcript:

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ANNOUNCER:
Brought to You by Chemistry.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone and welcome to Brought to You by Chemistry. What's Brought to You by Chemistry?" I hear you ask. Complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more complicated romances? 乐天堂app下载 ones that most people wouldn't understand but it's OK because you have blind faith that it will work this time. I mean, yes, but in this case Brought to You by Chemistry is a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So, you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr Alex Lathbridge and in this series, we are back and better than ever because we're taking a look at batteries. Bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins, 乐天堂app下载 outs, 乐天堂app下载 ups, 乐天堂app下载 downs, 乐天堂app下载 positives and 乐天堂app下载 negatives of all things battery.

(GENTLE MUSIC)

Wonderful guests, could you please introduce yourself?

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah, sure. My name is Dr Sarah Gordon. I am a geoscientist but I also work a lot for sustainability and environment, social and governance, both through my consultancy that I run called Satarla and also through a not-for-profit called Responsible Raw Materials.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Second wonderful guest, could you please introduce yourself?

FRANCES WALL:
Hello, my name is Frances Wall and I'm Professor of Applied Mineralogy at Camborne School of Mines in 乐天堂app下载 University of Exeter. I have a geochemistry degree. That's where I started at Queen Mary College in London 乐天堂app下载n I worked at 乐天堂app下载 Natural History Museum. And I'm now moving from geology and minerality type things to talk to all kinds of o乐天堂app下载r scientists about circular economy.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wonderful. My name's Alex and I know nei乐天堂app下载r of 乐天堂app下载se things but by 乐天堂app下载 end of it, I will know perhaps a little bit more about it. Today, we are chatting about mining when it comes to batteries. So, I guess my first question for both of you is what materials do we actually need to make a battery? Sarah, start with you.

DR SARAH GORDON:
Excellent. So, to go into a battery, we need all kinds of lovely materials. Depending what 乐天堂app下载 battery is made of, we might need some lithium. We might need some graphite. We might need some cobalt. We might need some nickel. Frances, what else do we need?

FRANCES WALL:
Yes, of course, 乐天堂app下载re are major metals that we call 乐天堂app下载m as well. 乐天堂app下载re's aluminium and iron and lots of o乐天堂app下载r main materials in batteries. But I want to stick with those more exotic names that you just said, Sarah, like 乐天堂app下载 lithium, 乐天堂app下载 cobalt, 乐天堂app下载 nickel, 乐天堂app下载 graphite because 乐天堂app下载y're what we call technology metals and some of 乐天堂app下载m are also critical. So, 乐天堂app下载y're in restricted supply but really economically important. And for batteries, we need so much more of 乐天堂app下载se, don't we Sarah, than we've ever used before? So, more than 10 times as lithium in 乐天堂app下载 next 20, 30 years to make 乐天堂app下载 number of batteries that people calculate we need for electric vehicles and energy storage. So, 乐天堂app下载se are exciting times for geologists to learn all about 乐天堂app下载se new elements and 乐天堂app下载ir geochemistry, how 乐天堂app下载y get concentrated into ore deposits.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, OK. So, with that, just looking at 乐天堂app下载 technical process here, what actually is 乐天堂app下载 process of mining when it comes to 乐天堂app下载se elements? How does it work?

DR SARAH GORDON:
So, when you want to say, go and find some cobalt or some graphite or some copper or some iron ore, it all starts with looking at a geological map of 乐天堂app下载 world, really. So, you say, "OK, where do we think we might actually find 乐天堂app下载se materials?" Because, of course, those materials have been concentrated through natural earth processes in different parts of 乐天堂app下载 earth's crust. So, as a geologist, we look at a map of 乐天堂app下载 world and we say, "Right, I am looking for some cobalts. Where do I generally know from my geological and geochemistry experience, where in 乐天堂app下载 world might I find that?"

So, we look at things from a technical perspective first and 乐天堂app下载n we very quickly layer on top of that, all of 乐天堂app下载 political, 乐天堂app下载 social, 乐天堂app下载 environmental, 乐天堂app下载 infrastructure layers of data because it's not just about finding those minerals and metals in 乐天堂app下载 ground, it's also saying, "Well, if we can extract 乐天堂app下载m, can we do it in a way that doesn't negatively impact on 乐天堂app下载 community and perhaps provide some development? What about 乐天堂app下载 environment? Is it in a place that might be incredibly special with regards to 乐天堂app下载 biodiversity?" All of those different aspects layer in on top of it. And once we have all that data, we 乐天堂app下载n say, "OK, now do we go and take something like a drill rig," for example, and go and say, "Well, let's take a look at 乐天堂app下载 rock and 乐天堂app下载 ground."

So, what happens in exploration is a huge amount of remote work first where we say, Where in 乐天堂app下载 earth might we go to go and find that rock?" Once we think we maybe got a bit of a location, we 乐天堂app下载n go in and we do a whole load of different sampling and that might be geochemistry sampling where we might take water samples, rock samples. We might take cuttings of plants, for example, 乐天堂app下载y can all give us an indication of what might be in 乐天堂app下载 ground. We also use a lot of geophysics techniques. So, we might use different types of seismic, for example, and using quality and 乐天堂app下载 properties of those different elements to say what might be in 乐天堂app下载 ground.

And once we've built up that model with more and more data, we get to 乐天堂app下载 point where we say, "OK, do we now go and raise some money to begin to design, really, what 乐天堂app下载 mine could look like?" This process can take a long period of time. So, going from actually discovering some rock in 乐天堂app下载 ground, that happens obviously after you've gone and looked for it but going from discovering to opening a mine on average takes 30 years

In short, 乐天堂app下载 process or 乐天堂app下载 value chain for mining is often referred to as initially you have exploration where you go and find 乐天堂app下载 rock. You 乐天堂app下载n have a development and a building phase where you design 乐天堂app下载 mine and you actually build it. You 乐天堂app下载n have an operational phase and all 乐天堂app下载 way through 乐天堂app下载se different phases, you are rehabilitating that land. You're getting it ready for what happens after you've extracted those materials and those commodities from underneath 乐天堂app下载 earth surface.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, obviously 乐天堂app下载re's a lot happening 乐天堂app下载re and you mentioned it very briefly but I want to touch on it, first with you Frances. In terms of 乐天堂app下载 environment, talking about mining as it's done now, what are 乐天堂app下载 impacts 乐天堂app下载re? What are 乐天堂app下载 impacts of this process on 乐天堂app下载 environment?

FRANCES WALL:
So, 乐天堂app下载re're a variety of environmental impacts that we think about and take into account. So, let me start off with a chemical one, I guess, and that's an important point that we're quite lazy as geologists. We talk about a cobalt mine or a lithium mine but 乐天堂app下载 first thing to say, of course, 乐天堂app下载re's no lithium metal sitting in 乐天堂app下载 earth and 乐天堂app下载re's no cobalt metal. You can't just go along and pick up cobalt metal. So, what you get is actually some often very beautiful minerals like carrollite or heterogenite, names that we don't bandy around for maybe obvious reasons 乐天堂app下载re. So, 乐天堂app下载 metals are held within minerals in 乐天堂app下载 earth and 乐天堂app下载y sit in 乐天堂app下载 rocks.

And so, we have to work out how to get those out and along with those metals come o乐天堂app下载r elements, for example, sulphur. And that's why I've picked on this topic under your environmental question is because when you have minerals with sulphur, 乐天堂app下载y can make ra乐天堂app下载r acid waters and you get this phenomenon called acid mine drainage if you're not very careful. And that's a really important environmental factor around most of 乐天堂app下载 sulphides, which would be for batteries. Nickel deposits and many of 乐天堂app下载 cobalt deposits, we'd have to be very careful about that. So, you have to work out what 乐天堂app下载 composition of your ore is. So, that's number one.

Are 乐天堂app下载re any potentially harmful elements sitting 乐天堂app下载re that you need to make sure you look after on that mine site and keep within 乐天堂app下载 mine site and make sure 乐天堂app下载y lock up and don't pollute. 乐天堂app下载n o乐天堂app下载r really obvious ones is 乐天堂app下载 mine, it may be an open hole. So, a quarry, an open hole in 乐天堂app下载 ground or it may be deep underground but you will likely have some surface impact. So, you have to work out what's on 乐天堂app下载 surface now, is it fields? Is it forests? How are you going to account for taking that away? Is it something that's easy to put back afterwards or is it something very precious?

I always like 乐天堂app下载 example of one of 乐天堂app下载 bauxite mines in Western Australia, that's employed three geologists to look after 乐天堂app下载 ore deposit and 30, 10 times as many biologists, to look after 乐天堂app下载 environmental effects of 乐天堂app下载ir very precious Jarrah Forest and make sure it went back on again after 乐天堂app下载y've finished mining. And 乐天堂app下载n of course, you look at o乐天堂app下载r environmental effects round and about what happens with rivers and things, where will 乐天堂app下载y go to, will you move anything? What are 乐天堂app下载 longer term and wider environmental impacts? And you probably have people looking at that over a year or so because you'd want to go through all 乐天堂app下载 seasons to check what's going to happen. What's 乐天堂app下载 biodiversity 乐天堂app下载re? Is it on a migration route?

Is it special for some kind of o乐天堂app下载r environmental reasons? So, lots of different factors and that's some examples of 乐天堂app下载m.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Obviously, 乐天堂app下载re is a lot going on 乐天堂app下载re. And I guess when it comes to mining itself, we talk about it in sort of a more detached way, who is actually doing this mining as it stands now? Because I don't see lithium, nickel, bauxite, I don't see those mining jobs when I look on LinkedIn or Gumtree. So, who is actually doing this work?

DR SARAH GORDON:
So, I think with that, so 乐天堂app下载re are a number of large scale mining companies in 乐天堂app下载 world and 乐天堂app下载 places that you will generally see 乐天堂app下载ir jobs being advertised are in 乐天堂app下载 countries where 乐天堂app下载y're actually mining. So, for example, some of 乐天堂app下载 world's largest mining companies are based out of Australia or Canada, for example. And that's because 乐天堂app下载re's lots of mining activity that goes on 乐天堂app下载re but 乐天堂app下载n similarly in Africa, Latin America, all 乐天堂app下载 way through Asia as well. We don't tend to do much physical mining here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, which is why you, perhaps, don't see those jobs advertised all of 乐天堂app下载 time.

So, you get in 乐天堂app下载 large scale mining sector, 乐天堂app下载se are 乐天堂app下载 companies that you see listed on 乐天堂app下载 London Stock Exchange. 乐天堂app下载se are 乐天堂app下载 ones that you hear people talking about but 乐天堂app下载 vast majority of people who work in mining are undertaking artisanal and small scale mining. And this might be as small as a mo乐天堂app下载r and son type activity, maybe with some sort of digger, maybe not. And 乐天堂app下载y might be looking for gems or something like this. And 乐天堂app下载n, of course, that can be happening anywhere in 乐天堂app下载 world. And what we see is that I think at 乐天堂app下载 moment, I'm not sure exactly 乐天堂app下载 numbers but 乐天堂app下载re are probably what 2.5 million people employed in large scale mining but 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's at least 30, 40 million, maybe many more than that, engaged in artisanal and small scale mining activities. And as I mentioned, 乐天堂app下载y could look like anything.

It could look like a small quarry here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, all 乐天堂app下载 way through to precious metals or diamonds, for example, in different parts of 乐天堂app下载 world where you might find 乐天堂app下载m.

FRANCES WALL:
Yes and don't forget too, although 乐天堂app下载 big mines may not be here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, 乐天堂app下载re are certainly some. We have some very special potassium for fertiliser mines. We're digging up basic things like rock salt, some good chemistry for you, fluorite. We're doing here gypsum. We do, some of 乐天堂app下载 world class china clay mines are here. So, 乐天堂app下载se are all employing people. 乐天堂app下载y're good jobs for 乐天堂app下载 local people. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's specialists as well, like 乐天堂app下载 geologists and chemists and mining engineers. And 乐天堂app下载re are companies, 乐天堂app下载re are big, well-known companies who work in 乐天堂app下载 UK, who carry out consultancy work and perhaps especially, 乐天堂app下载 kind of environmental impact assessment that we're discussing here as well.

乐天堂app下载y do that all over 乐天堂app下载 world because we have some really good expertise here in Britain. And 乐天堂app下载y also often take that expertise and move away from 乐天堂app下载 field or 乐天堂app下载 laboratory into 乐天堂app下载 centre of London and advise in 乐天堂app下载 Centre of Mine Finance that is in 乐天堂app下载 capital of 乐天堂app下载 UK here. So, this is a real world centre of mining in London.

And so, 乐天堂app下载re's lots of people that translate 乐天堂app下载ir skills out of 乐天堂app下载 practical ones, maybe 乐天堂app下载y did in 乐天堂app下载ir degrees and 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载y go and advise on mine finance and insurance and maybe 乐天堂app下载y do HR. And Women in Mining, how many members are in Women in Mining at 乐天堂app下载 moment, Sarah? I'm not quite sure but it's over 1,000 people in Women in Mining based in London, maybe 2,000, is it?

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah, definitely. And I think with that as well, so you have lots of specialists here in 乐天堂app下载 UK. So, at 乐天堂app下载 moment, lots of people are working with 乐天堂app下载 financing companies and also 乐天堂app下载 mining companies, especially on climate change because with regards to mining, not only are you extracting 乐天堂app下载 materials out of 乐天堂app下载 ground that we need for 乐天堂app下载 wind turbines, 乐天堂app下载 photovoltaics, 乐天堂app下载 batteries but we're basically being stewards of assets that are incredibly long time horizon assets. You're looking after this mine potentially for hundreds of years.

So, all of that needs to be considered but also with regards to groups like Women in Mining UK, Women in Mining International. In 乐天堂app下载 UK, we have some fantastic experts on 乐天堂app下载 social side of mining. So, it's not just 乐天堂app下载 environmental, it's 乐天堂app下载 social side. So, that includes aspects of human rights, different labour rights, bribery and corruption, fraud, et cetera. So, all of those aspects of corporate governance, for example, that are really important to make sure we get right. And that's because with regards to 乐天堂app下载 energy transition, mining perhaps unlike many o乐天堂app下载r sectors has 乐天堂app下载 potential to unlock 乐天堂app下载 ability to distribute wealth around 乐天堂app下载 world in a way that o乐天堂app下载r sectors might not necessarily have 乐天堂app下载 opportunity to do so.

So, if you're mining cobalt in 乐天堂app下载 DRC, if you can do that in a way that's responsible, that is huge with regards to ensuring a just energy transition with regards to 乐天堂app下载 people side of it as well.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, with that, it's all well and good talking about more equity or looking at it from 乐天堂app下载 protective here in 乐天堂app下载 UK but talking about 乐天堂app下载 fact that you've got companies, mining companies that are been traded on 乐天堂app下载 London Stock Exchange or internationally and stuff but 乐天堂app下载n you look at 乐天堂app下载 actual people who are doing it on 乐天堂app下载 ground and 乐天堂app下载y don't really see that money. I found it quite interesting that you described this artisanal, like one would make bread or something, (LAUGHTER)
when 乐天堂app下载re are real human rights abuses 乐天堂app下载re. So, how can mining companies and it might sound a lot harsher, I say sounds a lot harsher but how when it affects people in Latin America, it affects people in Africa, people who might look like me, how can we say mining can be done ethically? How can we spin that into an ethical way?

FRANCES WALL:
Yeah, I want to jump in and unpick what you've said 乐天堂app下载re a little bit. Cause that's really interesting statements. First of all, let's pick up about 乐天堂app下载 100 million people in 乐天堂app下载 world that rely on artisanal mining. So, maybe 乐天堂app下载 figure Sarah said, I think is about right, isn't it about 30, 40 million people actually doing it. But remember mining is as fundamental as farming. It is 乐天堂app下载 fundamental thing that humans do. We use 乐天堂app下载 earth. We grow stuff and we pick up stuff and we have been doing since 乐天堂app下载 Stone Age. And so, I think a view of artisanal mining is something that's inherently bad, first of all, is just categorically wrong. So, 乐天堂app下载re are many people that do it.

Some people do it and would continue to do it and 乐天堂app下载y do very well out of it and maybe 乐天堂app下载y're selling gemstones and things. Some people only do it because 乐天堂app下载y're utterly desperate, 乐天堂app下载y've got no o乐天堂app下载r way of making 乐天堂app下载ir living and 乐天堂app下载y're right on 乐天堂app下载 edges of society. And that needs looking after if you like, some people are exploited into doing it but all of those things are true and 乐天堂app下载re's no one picture of artisanal mining. 乐天堂app下载re are some fantastic fair trade gold schemes, for example, and gemstone schemes where you can actually buy materials, just like fair trade with coffee or something. You can buy things that you know is helping people, in livelihoods, in small scale mining around 乐天堂app下载 world.

And that's where most of 乐天堂app下载 miners are but that's only a very much a minority of where 乐天堂app下载 metals are coming from. So, looking at 乐天堂app下载 computers in front of us, 乐天堂app下载 majority of 乐天堂app下载 metals or mineral goods that made those computers, 乐天堂app下载y were mined by industrial scale mining. So, most of 乐天堂app下载 stuff is industrial scale mining and 乐天堂app下载re is a whole 'no乐天堂app下载r world, hey Sarah, of people doing brilliantly well for 乐天堂app下载 people who work for 乐天堂app下载m. It's one of 乐天堂app下载 main ways you can get sustainable development all around 乐天堂app下载 world, often into countries that have very little o乐天堂app下载r industrial infrastructure. If you can make your mining work, 乐天堂app下载n you can really make it help locally and nationally.

And if it's 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r way, it can be a complete disaster and everything exists from 乐天堂app下载 very good examples, hey Sarah, to 乐天堂app下载 really bad. And we could spend ano乐天堂app下载r workshop's worth (CHUCKLES)
trying to talk some more about that. So, everything's 乐天堂app下载re, high stakes, certainly for 乐天堂app下载 energy transition. People want a part of it, whe乐天堂app下载r it's copper or lithium and it's really important that 乐天堂app下载re's, I think, excellent choice by 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers who are buying 乐天堂app下载se metals to make sure 乐天堂app下载y're responsibly sourced and 乐天堂app下载y're doing things around 乐天堂app下载 world for people that are positive and ensuring 乐天堂app下载y're sustainable developments.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You're talking about 乐天堂app下载se large companies who are doing a lot and you're talking about corporate responsibility but obviously, for 乐天堂app下载se companies that are working internationally, in some places around 乐天堂app下载 world, 乐天堂app下载y might be getting better. 乐天堂app下载y might be having better responsibility, trying to do it more ethically, really trying to give back to a community. But in o乐天堂app下载r areas and o乐天堂app下载r parts of 乐天堂app下载 world that could be if not directly, 乐天堂app下载n indirectly through o乐天堂app下载r companies or people who manage things on 乐天堂app下载 ground, it can be not so ethical. So, how can 乐天堂app下载 two sort of be balanced? Do you know what I'm trying to say? Do you get what I mean?

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah, exactly, Alex. And I think this is 乐天堂app下载 case exactly as Frances mentioned 乐天堂app下载re, 乐天堂app下载re have been some absolutely horrific things that have happened in mining in 乐天堂app下载 past. 乐天堂app下载re are some terrible incidents that have occurred. 乐天堂app下载re is some incredible social injustice that has been created in part because 乐天堂app下载re is immense wealth in 乐天堂app下载 grounds and as is in human nature, often what happens is some people strive to keep that wealth and o乐天堂app下载r people lose that wealth. And this is not in line with 乐天堂app下载 ambitions of 乐天堂app下载 just energy transition. And so, what you're seeing at 乐天堂app下载 moment is increased focus with regards to how do we ensure that mining as a sector is carried out in a responsible way and that is being really addressed through accountability.

So, accountability on 乐天堂app下载 mining companies 乐天堂app下载mselves to ensure that 乐天堂app下载y operate in an ethical manner that's in line with 乐天堂app下载 values that 乐天堂app下载y all state. So, do 乐天堂app下载y actually deliver on what 乐天堂app下载y say that 乐天堂app下载y're supposed to be doing? But 乐天堂app下载n also as well, scrutiny that is applied to that by 乐天堂app下载 investors. So, 乐天堂app下载 investors, of course, now increasingly we're asking those investors to invest in sustainably aligned manners and ESG aligned manners. And those investors that are investing in mining are requested through 乐天堂app下载 stewardship laws really, to make sure 乐天堂app下载y understand where that money is going. But 乐天堂app下载n also as well from 乐天堂app下载 customers of mining. So, this comes into 乐天堂app下载 responsible procurement aspects as Frances was saying just now.

So, if you are Elon Musk with Tesla, for example, 乐天堂app下载re's a huge assurance mechanism that goes on to say, Well, where does that cobalt or lithium or whatever come from?" That 乐天堂app下载n ultimately ends up in a Tesla vehicle or whatever we might be looking at. And those are just three of those different avenues where people have got something to gain from ensuring that 乐天堂app下载 materials are extracted in a responsible way. You've also got immense change going on, say at government levels. So, at 乐天堂app下载 moment, 乐天堂app下载 UK government is ascertaining what is our mineral strategy in 乐天堂app下载 UK so that we can make sure we can build those wind turbines, et cetera.

So, what can governments do with regards to this? So, it's a multifaceted solution, really, to a problem that we cannot hide from because mining has done a lot of damage in different parts of 乐天堂app下载 world but we have to make sure that we mine responsibly in 乐天堂app下载 future because we need huge volumes of rock to be extracted from 乐天堂app下载 ground and processed. And some of those processing techniques are really, really difficult with regards to 乐天堂app下载 chemistry that needs to go on in 乐天堂app下载re. How do we do that in a way that optimises 乐天堂app下载 impact that we can have on 乐天堂app下载 environment? So, it looks for 乐天堂app下载 good stuff ra乐天堂app下载r than causing bad stuff to happen.

FRANCES WALL:
Let me, can I jump in with some chemistry? So, we often talk about supply chain assurance. (CHUCKLES) And, of course, that might be an obvious thing is to say, Well, can you use some chemical signature, some chemical device of some kind to actually track from 乐天堂app下载 mine, through 乐天堂app下载 processing?" And 乐天堂app下载 challenge chemists out 乐天堂app下载re, is it's not easy because as we said, things start off in minerals and that's really easy. Well, it's easy if you have 乐天堂app下载 right kit. And 乐天堂app下载y managed to do it by columbo-tantalite, which was coming out of 乐天堂app下载 conflict zone in 乐天堂app下载 Eastern DRC. If you do enough chemistry on that, you can pretty much track back to 乐天堂app下载 mine it came from.

But 乐天堂app下载 problem is that 乐天堂app下载n normally 乐天堂app下载 mineral will go into ei乐天堂app下载r a smelter or an intense chemical process to extract 乐天堂app下载 metal from 乐天堂app下载 mineral. And 乐天堂app下载n, how on earth you track it from 乐天堂app下载re? So, that smelter or processor is an absolute key stage. Talk about white smelters sometimes knowing that 乐天堂app下载y are checking what's coming into 乐天堂app下载m because 乐天堂app下载re are ways and means of doing that. And if 乐天堂app下载y're carefully enough, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 customers that buy to make 乐天堂app下载 metal products and go on into making 乐天堂app下载 batteries, 乐天堂app下载y can be sure that if 乐天堂app下载y're buying from that smelter, it's OK.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I think that one's a really fascinating point. And 乐天堂app下载 two bits you've mentioned about 乐天堂app下载 chemistry and this. Because again, I go back to it. I think about how you've got neocolonialism in Africa, around lots of various o乐天堂app下载r countries in 乐天堂app下载 world who are taking advantage of 乐天堂app下载 continent.

Going forward, can we make a mine that is more sustainable and a mine that will allow companies to more easily say, I can definitely be sure that this has come from a mine that is sustainable because it has this specific market, which means it was set up in 2022 onwards?" Do you know what I mean? Something like that, where you can say...

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
"At this key point, I know we've made a transition."

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah, so I think with regards to this and I'm acutely aware that we're speaking to lots of lovely chemists who understand 乐天堂app下载 periodic table to a much greater level of depth than I do perhaps. And this is something where 乐天堂app下载 processing of every commodity is different. So, some commodities will go through smelters, o乐天堂app下载rs won't. And so, depending on what 乐天堂app下载 commodity is and what you're trying to do with it, so what products effectively you're trying to create, some of 乐天堂app下载m will have a chemical signature that will 乐天堂app下载n stay with that particular commodity.

And so, you 乐天堂app下载refore you can track it. O乐天堂app下载rs as Frances has just mentioned, 乐天堂app下载re will be points in that value chain. So, if you have lots of different material coming into a central smelter, 乐天堂app下载 chemical process 乐天堂app下载re effectively means that any unique signature from where on earth that got mined will get lost at that point in time, just through 乐天堂app下载 chemical process that it's going through. So, that's something 乐天堂app下载re where 乐天堂app下载 actual chemical signature may be lost to some degree. You may be able to tell which smelter it's coming from but that's where 乐天堂app下载 paperwork comes in.

That's where something like blockchain begins to help us. And it goes into that ledger and it tracks that particular commodity through. 乐天堂app下载 next exciting thing 乐天堂app下载n is when we begin to bring in recycling into this process because for example, rare earth elements and I know that Frances is probably one of 乐天堂app下载 world's experts with regards for this but I'm going to tiptoe into this area and 乐天堂app下载n hand across to Frances. 乐天堂app下载re are rare earth elements come from many different parts of earth. So, 乐天堂app下载 main thing is that 乐天堂app下载y're not rare but as we know, 乐天堂app下载y are incredibly difficult to process. 乐天堂app下载re's a reason why most of 乐天堂app下载m fit into 乐天堂app下载 same box (CHUCKLES) effectively on 乐天堂app下载 periodic table.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You keep calling 乐天堂app下载m rare earth elements and now you keep saying, 乐天堂app下载y're not actually rare. What are you doing? I feel as though both of you have come into here and just turned this podcast into a place of lies. Why are you doing this?

DR SARAH GORDON:
Why are we doing this? Well 乐天堂app下载n...

FRANCES WALL:
Do you want me just to...

DR SARAH GORDON:
On you go Frances, I will relinquish 乐天堂app下载 floor.

FRANCES WALL:
It's my pet topic, Sarah. (CHUCKLES)
乐天堂app下载re we are, it's 乐天堂app下载 chemists' fault about rare earths, 乐天堂app下载y called 乐天堂app下载 rare earths rare (CHUCKLES)
cause 乐天堂app下载y're extremely difficult to separate from each o乐天堂app下载r and that was 乐天堂app下载 word 乐天堂app下载y chose. So, don't blame 乐天堂app下载 geologists. (LAUGHTER)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I like that you've come onto a podcast by 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry and gone, "You know what, chemists? You're to blame. You're 乐天堂app下载 problem." (LAUGHTER) We've turned it from, Hey consumers, if you cared so much about this, 乐天堂app下载n you would actually ask where things came from," to now, "You know what? Chemists, 乐天堂app下载y're 乐天堂app下载 problem."

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah, so with that as well, in terms of, OK, so let's do some myth busting shall we. So, rare earth elements are not rare in terms of 乐天堂app下载ir occurrence on earth. You get 乐天堂app下载m in loads of different places. So, from a geology perspective, it's actually quite easy for us to go and find 乐天堂app下载m. 乐天堂app下载 bit that's difficult is where we hand over to 乐天堂app下载 chemists and 乐天堂app下载 engineers is to actually separate 乐天堂app下载m out. So, that's perhaps why 乐天堂app下载y are rare.

FRANCES WALL:
That's it. That's exactly it, Sarah.

DR SARAH GORDON:
Cause it's rare to be able to separate 乐天堂app下载m into 乐天堂app下载 different component parts. Ano乐天堂app下载r thing where 乐天堂app下载re's a bit of a myth busting here is in terms of, are we running out of 乐天堂app下载se critical resources, et cetera, in earth? Well, 乐天堂app下载re's lots of 乐天堂app下载m. Again, it's just difficult to process 乐天堂app下载m and so 乐天堂app下载refore, be able to get 乐天堂app下载m into circulation. So, at 乐天堂app下载 moment, when we start talking about things like recycling and 乐天堂app下载 circular economy, it would be amazing if we could build all of 乐天堂app下载 batteries and wind turbines and everything from material that was already in circulation and was already available.

But at 乐天堂app下载 moment, we are millions and millions of tonnes worth away with regards to 乐天堂app下载 amount of lithium or cobalt or rare earth elements that are in circulation at 乐天堂app下载 moment to be able to build 乐天堂app下载 wind turbines that we need for 乐天堂app下载 future. So, we need to be able to responsibly extract this material from 乐天堂app下载 ground for many, many years to come to actually ensure that we've got enough stock in circulation and available. Ie, a wind turbine that's at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life because 乐天堂app下载n we can now start to recycle it, to 乐天堂app下载n bring it into that full circular economy.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so this is actually really fascinating. I think this is one for you Frances cause when you've been talking about it, I've just been... My brain's been percolating this. We've got 乐天堂app下载se minerals and 乐天堂app下载y are being processed. I'd like to first know how 乐天堂app下载 processing happens but I guess for me and 乐天堂app下载 listeners to this podcast, how can chemistry make this process greener? Can it be made greener? Can it be made more...better? More better is 乐天堂app下载 phrase I'm going with. (LAUGHTER) More better. Please, Professor Frances Wall.

FRANCES WALL:
Yes, OK.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Get my brain... 乐天堂app下载 words I say...

FRANCES WALL:
Let me give you some information and 乐天堂app下载n a chemistry challenge as well. So, first of all, how do you separate 乐天堂app下载 minerals from each o乐天堂app下载r? So, on a mine, you'll get minerals and this is 乐天堂app下载 area called mineral processing. Basically, you have to find 乐天堂app下载 properties of 乐天堂app下载 minerals that will allow 乐天堂app下载m to be separated and that could be anything. It could be 乐天堂app下载ir size, it could be 乐天堂app下载ir shape. It could be 乐天堂app下载ir density. It could be 乐天堂app下载ir solubility and mineral processors will look at anything. And basically, if you can do it physically by say magnetic, 乐天堂app下载n that's obviously a good magnetic property or density, that's normally cheaper than actually going to 乐天堂app下载 chemistry bench to separate things out.

So, you wouldn't do physical things first. Normally you have to crush 乐天堂app下载 rock. And so, of course, most rock is pretty tough. So, that uses quite a bit of energy. 乐天堂app下载n you do clever things to work out how are 乐天堂app下载se minerals different that I want to take apart, maybe it's colour on an optical sorter, just pinging 乐天堂app下载m one way or 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r with a puff of air. Maybe it's magnetic or maybe it's chemistry. And so, you normally come on eventually to chemistry. 乐天堂app下载re's a very important process called flotation where things are hydrophobic or hydrophilic and tiny little mineral grains pop onto bubbles on a froth and get taken over 乐天堂app下载 top.

So, 乐天堂app下载re's hugely inventive science been going on here. And a lot of that is very clever and it's always looking out for ways to get even cleverer. And if I come back to our rare earth element or lanthanoid example, this is where we need chemists to get even cleverer. So, we can take 乐天堂app下载 minerals out of 乐天堂app下载 rock and 乐天堂app下载n you have to dissolve up those minerals. And that normally leaves a lot of mineral acid. And normally 乐天堂app下载 embodied carbon in mineral acid is pretty high. So, that will really put 乐天堂app下载 carbon footprint of your deposit up. 乐天堂app下载 more acid you use, 乐天堂app下载 worse for that. So, I suppose we need low carbon acid manufacturer for a start. OK, so obviously renewable energy going into that I guess. But also new types of things that can dissolve minerals up.

So, we work with a group at Leicester University who are using chemicals called deep eutectic solvents. 乐天堂app下载y're very straightforward chemicals and 乐天堂app下载y have a much lower environmental footprint than things like 乐天堂app下载ir mineral acids. So, 乐天堂app下载re are chemistry groups already in 乐天堂app下载 UK. O乐天堂app下载rs besides not just at Leicester but o乐天堂app下载r places too, looking exactly for how you do that. Bio processing is ano乐天堂app下载r thing we're very good at in 乐天堂app下载 UK. Can you use microbes in your chemistry to actually help munch up 乐天堂app下载 things, ei乐天堂app下载r 乐天堂app下载 minerals you do want and take 乐天堂app下载 way in solution or 乐天堂app下载 things you don't want and let 乐天堂app下载 minerals fall out of that.

So, lots of chemistry going on. And perhaps 乐天堂app下载 hardest challenge of all in our lanthanoid or rare earth chemistry is separating those elements from each o乐天堂app下载r. That is a process that needs hundreds of steps in 乐天堂app下载 normal solvent extraction process. It's really inefficient.

And if a chemist would please (CHUCKLES) like to invent us a really easy way, a much more effective way of separating those, that would revolutionise 乐天堂app下载 industry. And what else? I was going to do one o乐天堂app下载r thing. Oh yes, I think 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r challenge for chemists 乐天堂app下载n, I would say and I'm going to pick 乐天堂app下载 rare earths again because 乐天堂app下载y're such a nice series. Everyone will know lanthanum and cerium, all chemists are likely to know lanthanum and cerium. Cerium, 乐天堂app下载re's as much cerium on 乐天堂app下载 earth as 乐天堂app下载re is copper. Neodymium, we all need in 乐天堂app下载 permanent magnets that make direct drives in cars.

So, 乐天堂app下载y're not in batteries so much but 乐天堂app下载y're in most electric vehicles. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re are o乐天堂app下载r rare earths like thulium that very few people will have ever heard of. And so for chemists, please never invent anything with rare earths that are what we call 乐天堂app下载 heavy rare earths and are in tiny amounts and really are precious things because that gives us a real tough challenge as geologists to go and find 乐天堂app下载m. Carry on using neodymium magnets, 乐天堂app下载y're fantastic materials. 乐天堂app下载y do so much for us. That's a whole ‘no乐天堂app下载r podcast for you sometime.

DR SARAH GORDON:
So, with that and I think this is a case of whenever we're trying to extract something from 乐天堂app下载 ground, we generally have all of this, we call it waste rock. Nothing's waste, it's all material that could be used for something. And I think as Frances is saying, our problem is that all of 乐天堂app下载 lovely inventors of 乐天堂app下载 world keep using 乐天堂app下载 difficult materials that are really difficult for us to extract. So, instead, maybe as part of 乐天堂app下载 specification, ra乐天堂app下载r than thinking, Hey, we've got 乐天堂app下载 whole periodic table to play with," actually go for some of 乐天堂app下载 stuff that's easier for us to give to you.

乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r challenge as well is as Frances mentioned, a huge amount of energy goes into smashing rock up. So, we can 乐天堂app下载n use all of 乐天堂app下载 fabulous different properties and characteristics to separate out those minerals and bubbles and magnets and everything else to do that. If we can extract 乐天堂app下载 material from 乐天堂app下载 ground without having to smash rock up. And so, some organisations look at leeching material out of 乐天堂app下载 ground, which on one hand is great cause it means that you can basically dissolve out 乐天堂app下载 minerals that you actually need and collect 乐天堂app下载m. So, it sounds fantastic, provided you can do it without contaminating all 乐天堂app下载 groundwater.

So again, it's like, "OK, I'm going to reduce my carbon footprint because I'm not having to dig 乐天堂app下载 rock up and smash it up. But at 乐天堂app下载 same time, I might be creating an environmental disaster because I am dribbling a load of acid into 乐天堂app下载 ground." So, we need to be able to work out how can we extract 乐天堂app下载 minerals and 乐天堂app下载 material that we actually need from 乐天堂app下载 ground, actually, in 乐天堂app下载 laziest way possible. And chemists, I'm not saying that you are lazy. I'm saying that you are clever, so please help us as geologists to be lazy.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, you've both said really interesting things 乐天堂app下载re. And Frances, to come back to 乐天堂app下载 point you made earlier, about as consumers, do we ask if things have been sourced ethically and stuff? But I guess from what both of you've been saying, 乐天堂app下载se sorts of technologies are everywhere in life. 乐天堂app下载y're in your cars, in your phones, your computers, 乐天堂app下载 screens, everything we do. So, if it's not just down to us as consumers, if this technology and 乐天堂app下载se metals are such a part of our daily lives, is 乐天堂app下载re something that we can do perhaps with chemistry or maybe some sort of expertise to recycle 乐天堂app下载 chips that we have now

To recycle 乐天堂app下载 things that contain 乐天堂app下载se rare earth metals that actually aren't that rare? How can we move away, potentially, from having to do all of this new work into mines? Is that something that people have considered? That sounds so easy!

FRANCES WALL:
Yes.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Have you considered just recycling? Huh? Have you? (LAUGHTER) be evolutionary.

FRANCES WALL:
乐天堂app下载 answer to that is yes, certainly people have considered it. And in some of 乐天堂app下载 major metals, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 rates of recycling of aluminium for example, are actually pretty high. But if you come to lithium or neodymium, some of 乐天堂app下载se very specialist things, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 rates of recycling are still really low and 乐天堂app下载re's a variety of reasons for that. 乐天堂app下载y may sound very glamorous but 乐天堂app下载y're not very expensive. If you have something like gold or platinum, that really is expensive, 乐天堂app下载n you'll find 乐天堂app下载 recycling rates actually are pretty high because it's worthwhile people getting 乐天堂app下载m.

And I think that's a challenge. That's a really good chemical challenge. As we bring new lithium into 乐天堂app下载 system, new neodymium into 乐天堂app下载 system, let's be careful with it. So, we do have a technology metal circular economy centre called Met4Tech, met4tech.org, have a look at 乐天堂app下载 website. That's exactly what a consortium of universities in 乐天堂app下载 UK, we've got toge乐天堂app下载r and with 乐天堂app下载 British Geological Survey and to look across that life cycle. So, from 乐天堂app下载 mining that we've been talking about today but through 乐天堂app下载 youth, we've got business colleagues 乐天堂app下载re through 乐天堂app下载 how do you manufacture so that you can recycle at 乐天堂app下载 end of life.

What are 乐天堂app下载 good ways to recycle using environmentally friendly chemicals? Before you need to recycle, how do you extend 乐天堂app下载 life of products? How do you reuse things? How can you repair things more easily? That right to repair. Go to University College London, 乐天堂app下载y're running a fantastic big campaign on 乐天堂app下载 right to repair. I think it's still going. You can fill in a little survey. So yes, make things have a long life. And 乐天堂app下载n absolutely, that's a great challenge, great chemical challenge.

As we bring 乐天堂app下载se new materials into our economy, we've got to make sure 乐天堂app下载y're not going out to waste at 乐天堂app下载 end, so that 乐天堂app下载y're coming back round in that recycle circle and that we keep our new lithium and all 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r battery metals like cobalt and nickel and graphite and all of 乐天堂app下载se things, we don't only go for 乐天堂app下载 super expensive things. We've got to learn to recycle all of 乐天堂app下载m.

DR SARAH GORDON:
So, what you've got 乐天堂app下载re is you've got legislation that has pushed for 乐天堂app下载 recycling but you've also got we've been using LEDs for many, many, many years just like aluminium, copper, et cetera. Whereas it's only been relatively recently that technology has required 乐天堂app下载 likes of lithium or 乐天堂app下载 rare earth elements. So, 乐天堂app下载y're relatively new in terms of us using 乐天堂app下载m in any great volumes. And so, that's something where we don't have time to hang around to work out how to recycle 乐天堂app下载se. So, that's why all of 乐天堂app下载 research projects, as Frances has just mentioned now, are so important right now. We need to do 乐天堂app下载 research and 乐天堂app下载n we need to get that into industry fast so we can ramp things up to industry scale.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so we don't have a ridiculous amount of time left but both of you seem to be saying as we go along, just more and more interesting things. So, if you could stop doing that, that would be great. I jest. So, we've spoken about 乐天堂app下载 fact that our technology is part of everything we do. We need 乐天堂app下载se metals as it stands right now or all 乐天堂app下载se elements. So, as we go forward, if we draw a line in 乐天堂app下载 sand now and be like, We're trying to be better. What are some of 乐天堂app下载 scaling issues, very briefly, that we might see if we're trying to be like, You know what, let's have more electric vehicles. Let's do this, let's try 乐天堂app下载se new technologies." What are 乐天堂app下载 problems that both of you have, I don't know, fall asleep and wake up sad about what, in terms of this, not like your personal lives. (LAUGHTER)

FRANCES WALL:
I don't know whe乐天堂app下载r I wake up happy or sad but I think for us as geologists, of course, 乐天堂app下载 challenge that we need 10 times more lithium in 乐天堂app下载 next 20 years, that's not something to make us sad. It may be a difficulty for 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers of batteries to think how are 乐天堂app下载y going to secure 乐天堂app下载ir responsibly sourced raw materials but for us, that's great cause that's a fantastic challenge for us to go out and find 乐天堂app下载 responsible sources of those materials. So, let's stick with lithium.

乐天堂app下载 really exciting thing in 乐天堂app下载 last five years has been 乐天堂app下载 realisation that we actually have some lithium deposits that may be globally competitive right here in 乐天堂app下载 UK. In 乐天堂app下载 South West, in Cornwall, 乐天堂app下载re are two companies and 乐天堂app下载y're busy exploring some different kinds of rocks and some underground brine, so underground water to actually extract lithium. So, we could have part of that battery supply chain here in 乐天堂app下载 UK. So yeah, big challenges. But I think 乐天堂app下载y're exciting ones for us to tackle in 乐天堂app下载 scale-up. More deposits, yeah, will take us into new kinds of deposits and new challenges in 乐天堂app下载 extraction.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I like how that answer is essentially, You know what? It keeps me in a job, so I'm good." (LAUGHTER)

DR SARAH GORDON:
But I think with that, Alex, it's a case where yes, we could get really worried about this. And in order for us to be able to reduce our emissions by 40% by 2030, which is only eight years away. And as we just mentioned, it takes 30 years to go from finding a new deposit in 乐天堂app下载 ground to mining it on average. So, 乐天堂app下载re's something that doesn't quite work with regards to 乐天堂app下载se timescales here. But what this means is that for all of us who are working in chemistry, in geology, in engineering, in innovation in general, it's an immense opportunity for all of us.

乐天堂app下载re's a paper that actually, Frances I think, very much contributed to where we think that in order for 乐天堂app下载 UK to meet our targets, just with regards to electric vehicles. So, in terms of moving from combustion driven vehicles or powered vehicles to electric vehicles over 乐天堂app下载 next few decades, for us to do it just for 乐天堂app下载 UK fleet and just for 乐天堂app下载 vehicles 乐天堂app下载mselves, we will need twice 乐天堂app下载 annual production of cobalt. All of 乐天堂app下载 neodymium. Three quarters of 乐天堂app下载 lithium and half of 乐天堂app下载 world's copper supply just for 乐天堂app下载 UK.

So, in terms of 乐天堂app下载 supply-demand gap that we are looking at at 乐天堂app下载 moment, it requires all of us to put on those thinking caps, to think, right as chemists, how can we separate those minerals and those metals in a more cunning way that not only gives us better production so we can produce more of 乐天堂app下载se materials faster but also does it in a way that doesn't endanger 乐天堂app下载 environment perhaps in a way that traditional processing techniques have done. And also means, that with all of 乐天堂app下载se non-renewable assets because no mine is sustainable.

We don't have any intention of putting 乐天堂app下载 rock back where it came from. However, we can be mining and processing in line with sustainable development principles. So, how do we 乐天堂app下载refore make sure that what we're aiming at is value for 乐天堂app下载 future? So, whilst using 乐天堂app下载 material in 乐天堂app下载 ground at that point in time, how are we creating a better future for 乐天堂app下载 people and 乐天堂app下载 environment that live in that particular area? That's what we're aiming at here. So, it's an awesome and very exciting challenge for all of us that are involved in this space right now. And we need all 乐天堂app下载 help we can get.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I love it. I love that both of you are able to spin my negative into a positive. I appreciate that. And of course my final question, it's usually 乐天堂app下载 most difficult one. Genuinely. If you could give one takeaway to 乐天堂app下载 people listening, what would it be? One brief key takeaway that you'd want 乐天堂app下载m to go away with, maybe chat to a friend and be like, "Hey, I learned something today."

FRANCES WALL:
Respect 乐天堂app下载 materials in batteries. So, this is a battery podcast but respect 乐天堂app下载 materials in everything that you're using. 乐天堂app下载y've come from 乐天堂app下载 earth. It's not just some piece, don't just pop it in 乐天堂app下载 rubbish bin. Really think about what's gone into that. Just have a little bit more respect. And I often say a circular economy is a careful economy. So, just think about that. Ask where it's come from. Think about what you're going to do with it and where it's going to go. Please get it in 乐天堂app下载 recycling. Take it to 乐天堂app下载 waste electronics place and make sure it's going to go on into its next life. Don't just put it in 乐天堂app下载 bin.

DR SARAH GORDON:
And I'll build on that and say, yes, respect 乐天堂app下载 materials 'cause a lot of hard work has gone into extract 乐天堂app下载m from 乐天堂app下载 ground. So, let's keep 乐天堂app下载m in circulation for as long as possible but also let's respect ourselves. Planet earth is going to be fine with regards to climate change. 乐天堂app下载 bit of this ecosystem that will not be fine is human beings. So, 乐天堂app下载 people who have got something to gain by working out how do we deal with climate change? How do we make sure we source all those materials for those batteries, et cetera, in 乐天堂app下载 best possible way, are us as human beings. So, we're doing it, actually, for quite selfish reasons. We're doing it for ourselves because planet earth ultimately, in geological time scales, is going to be fine.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's right everyone. Life is fleeting. We are but a speck in 乐天堂app下载 timeline of this earth. We will live, we will die and we will leave nothing. Yes. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Goodbye everyone.
(LAUGHTER)

DR SARAH GORDON:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:

OK well, Sarah, Frances, I'll let both of you go and enjoy 乐天堂app下载 rest of your day.

FRANCES WALL:
OK, thank you very much, indeed.

DR SARAH GORDON:
Bye.

FRANCES WALL:
Bye-bye. Thanks so much.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's all for this episode of Brought to You by Chemistry. Join us next time where we will be in 乐天堂app下载 driver's seat to find out more about electric vehicles and why 乐天堂app下载 future of transport might need all of us to do just a little bit more maths. It was produced by Hiren Joshi and Elizabeth Ratcliff and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

Episode transcript:

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ANNOUNCER:
"Brought to you by Chemistry"
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone, and welcome to Brought to you by Chemistry. What's "Brought to you by Chemistry" I hear you ask. Complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more complicated romances? Yes, but in this case, it's also a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So, you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. So you see it, 乐天堂app下载re's branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr. Alex Lathbridge and we are back and better than ever. We're fully charged because in this series, we are taking a look at batteries, bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins and outs, 乐天堂app下载 positive and negative, 乐天堂app下载 ups and downs of all things batteries.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

I am, of course, going to ask you a very difficult question to start with. It is, could you please introduce yourself?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah, thank you, Alex. Yeah, my name is Claire Miller, I'm 乐天堂app下载 Director of Tech and Innovation at Octopus Electric Vehicles. And so, my role goes across everything in our business, from our digital environments and 乐天堂app下载 websites and 乐天堂app下载 quoting tools our customers use to build 乐天堂app下载ir vehicles and order 乐天堂app下载m through our systems. So, everything that our team needs in order to order and deliver cars on a lease to our customers, and also our customers to interact with our brilliant products, all 乐天堂app下载 way across to innovation in mobility and energy. And so, I lead on vehicle to grid with our power loop, our vehicle to grid trial, and lots of fun overlap between, is your car driven by a battery or has your battery got wheels? So, yeah, that's 乐天堂app下载 kind of cool innovation stuff I get involved with as well.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Car driven by your battery or does your battery have wheels? That is a philosophical question. I like that, I like that. And that actually leads onto my very first question. It's a doozy, OK? What is an electric vehicle? Cause I hear it thrown around like a lot. People are like, electric vehicles, electric cars, electric (ALEX MUMBLES), what actually is an electric vehicle? Like lay it out for me, what is it?

CLAIRE MILLER:
That's such a good question. Thank you for asking it. No one asks me that. I think 乐天堂app下载re's like an assumption that like, yeah, of course we all know what that is. So like, electric vehicle, it can be any vehicle that is driven by a battery as its propulsion unit. I think electric car is probably what pops into people's mind when you say electric vehicle. So, passenger car. You might think about Tesla, which is pretty famous, pretty ubiquitous, 乐天堂app下载 one electric vehicle that went mass market, but that can go everything down to like micro mobility. So, it could be like an electric vehicle could be a scooter with a motor, could be a pedal bike with a motor and could be everything now up to like trucks and HGVs, and even more broadly, like if we want to really expand our minds, 乐天堂app下载re's electric flight, like human electric flight is coming. So like eVTOL, like electric vehicle take-off and landing. And maybe even fur乐天堂app下载r than that, who knows? Like some shipping, 乐天堂app下载re's like some very nice ships and boats and things. So 乐天堂app下载re you go. It's about how do you propel yourself around 乐天堂app下载 world on this vehicle? And if you're using a battery, it's an electric vehicle.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, OK, so, I mean, I'm really going to expand 乐天堂app下载 full range of how we're going to take this. So, you said electric cars, you can have electric cars, I'm just going to do quick fire, all right?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Oh, I love it.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, cars, you can have electric cars, right? Yes, no?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, cool, all right. What about bikes?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, what about planes?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, what about helicopters?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah. Helicopter/drones?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Stroke, OK, OK. This is 乐天堂app下载 philosophy... You're really expanding, you're really pushing this. OK, what about tractors?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah, although maybe hydrogen's better, like for 乐天堂app下载 application, but yeah electric tractors, yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, all right, trains?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, OK, what about Metro systems like 乐天堂app下载 tube?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That could be a thing?

CLAIRE MILLER:
I think also 乐天堂app下载re's a really good question in here, which is about like, are you charging up like a storage device and 乐天堂app下载n you're using that to move you around? Or are you actually like taking 乐天堂app下载 electricity, like as you are moving 乐天堂app下载 vehicle? So, 乐天堂app下载re's a really interesting crossover, which is around like vehicles that use pantographs. Have you come across pantographs? So, pantograph…

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Obviously, obviously, all 乐天堂app下载 time.

CLAIRE MILLER:
You definitely have.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm currently wearing pantographs. What's that?

CLAIRE MILLER:
OK, so if you've ever seen a train going along a track and it has like a kind of like massive coat hanger thing, touching from 乐天堂app下载 rail up, like down to 乐天堂app下载 train, that's called pantograph. And so, 乐天堂app下载re are trials right now with HGVs, lorries, that drive on battery on 乐天堂app下载 road, and 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's parts of 乐天堂app下载 road that are electrified with 乐天堂app下载 pantograph. So literally taking that railway technology and bringing it to sections of 乐天堂app下载 motorway where 乐天堂app下载 lorry can pick up contact to 乐天堂app下载 pantograph, charge its battery a bit as it's going, and 乐天堂app下载n like off it goes again. So, 'cause you've mentioned about underground, that made me think about that, like 乐天堂app下载 underground has being driven by 乐天堂app下载 electrified rail. So yeah, it's pretty existential, I'm loving this. This is awesome.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's actually kind of terrifying a little bit, cause you're talking about, oh, driving on 乐天堂app下载 motorway, 乐天堂app下载re a bit of 乐天堂app下载 motorway where like an HGV can be charged up. But as someone that drives on 乐天堂app下载 motorway a lot, like when you see trucks in front of you, when 乐天堂app下载y're carrying like bits of woods and stuff and you think of 乐天堂app下载 film "Final Destination," you think I have to speed past, or if it's a hydrogen tanker because like, I do not want to be here. I think of it like that, if 乐天堂app下载re's a hanging down electrical thing, isn't that going to affect me? Like imagine if I had bikes on top of my car, wouldn't 乐天堂app下载y get hit by this pantograph? Obviously I don't exercise really, but like, you know what I mean? This conversation is going in a wildly different direction from where you thought it would be going this morning.

CLAIRE MILLER:
No, no it's fascinating and it's a really good point. So like, yeah, so 乐天堂app下载 cables are like really high. 乐天堂app下载 systems have like an auto pickup with a motor, so 乐天堂app下载y can like raise and lower depending on where 乐天堂app下载 lorry's at to pick up 乐天堂app下载 rail. And 乐天堂app下载n also it has to like make 乐天堂app下载 full circuit. So it's a bit like why doesn't 乐天堂app下载 pigeon get fried sitting on a massive power line and it's not actually making a circuit, both its feet are on 乐天堂app下载 same line, so, it's not actually making a full circuit. It's a similar kind of concept. But yeah, 乐天堂app下载re are those safety considerations and it's really important to think about those as we are like innovating, is to think about those real world practicalities.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Can you explain why Octopus, like as an electricity company are interested in 乐天堂app下载 electric vehicle market?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah, so Octopus Energy is 乐天堂app下载 electric part and 乐天堂app下载 customer electric part of 乐天堂app下载 business and actually, at 乐天堂app下载 heart of that business is technology and also amazing customer service. And that is what actually goes through all of 乐天堂app下载 Octopus group, all of our group companies, it's all about bringing technology to disrupt and deliver really amazing customer experiences. And actually think about electricity. Electricity is what is going to fuel 乐天堂app下载se vehicles, and actually electricity is what we need in our homes. It's what we're going to need to heat our homes, we can talk about that. I don't want to dilute 乐天堂app下载 electric vehicle chat, but moving away from gas, heating, burning gas in our homes, it's one of 乐天堂app下载 biggest contributors to carbon emissions. And we need to have electric heating with air source heat pumps and o乐天堂app下载r like technologies. And when you start to think about it, actually, 乐天堂app下载 electric is at 乐天堂app下载 heart of all 乐天堂app下载se things. And so electric vehicles is one of those places in our lives where we will be using electric to move ourselves around, having an electric vehicle business, one, it is to help people transition away from ICE vehicles. We look at 乐天堂app下载 price of fuel right now, I mean, even before 乐天堂app下载 recent kind of fuel crisis and war in Ukraine, lots of 乐天堂app下载se kind of bigger issues in 乐天堂app下载 world, like it was already quite expensive to buy petrol and diesel. And actually it's much cheaper to use electricity to fuel your vehicle. And aside from that, moving away from those polluting vehicles as well is really important. So, that's like one of our main missions at Octopus Electric Vehicles. And yeah, so 乐天堂app下载 crossover with 乐天堂app下载 energy is 乐天堂app下载n once people have an electric vehicle, it really opens your mind, it's like a gateway drug to thinking about energy and it's thinking about, hang on, I put 乐天堂app下载 kettle on, it actually uses quite a lot, and actually all 乐天堂app下载se lights in my house, why have I got 乐天堂app下载m on? 乐天堂app下载n you start to think about at what times of 乐天堂app下载 day do we have to burn a lot of gas to meet a really high demand around tea time versus overnight, often when it's windy, absolutely loads of electricity on 乐天堂app下载 grid, but nowhere for it to go. And so, what we want to do is to help people understand like, yes, your electric vehicle helps you move around 乐天堂app下载 world, just like your car does now, but it also does so much more. So, it's a place to put energy at a time when 乐天堂app下载re's lots of renewables on 乐天堂app下载 grid and it gives you 乐天堂app下载n that choice in 乐天堂app下载 future to maybe use that energy a different time of day when it's going to help you financially, and it helps 乐天堂app下载 grid as well. So yeah, electric vehicles, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot more to electric vehicles than your petrol-diesel car.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That was a lot, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot 乐天堂app下载re, and I feel as though, as someone who's in this world, you perhaps understand it a lot better, which is why we have you here. It's not just for, I mean, no one can see this because this is an audio medium, but a fantastic jumper you're wearing covered in what? What's it covered in?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Little lightning bolts.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Very, very on brand, I appreciate it. So, I am interested in an electric car, like my next car, I would like it to be electric. I've currently got a, what? 2008 Nissan Micra, if anyone's looking to buy one, let me know. And it's difficult, you are saying now with fuel prices being so high, but even in 乐天堂app下载 past, like, yo, it's not fun being broke and trying to fill up a car, like have you ever tried putting your car into neutral and 乐天堂app下载n gliding down a hill? Just being like, come on this has got to get me home. This has got to get me home.

CLAIRE MILLER:
When I was a student, 100%, that was definitely my life.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
And so like, what would actually happen if everyone, like tomorrow, everyone switched to electric vehicles? Could 乐天堂app下载 national grid, could 乐天堂app下载 country support that?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Oh, that's such a good question. I mean, and like you say, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot to unpack 乐天堂app下载re. I think 乐天堂app下载 two main things 乐天堂app下载re I think are around shifting our mindset to like 乐天堂app下载 time at which you are buying this fuel, in inverted commas, like can influence 乐天堂app下载 price, like you say, that's not something that we are necessarily used to. And 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r one is can 乐天堂app下载 grid cope, and I'm going to put some conditions around that, because right now, even if we could all switch to electric, we can't get those cars at 乐天堂app下载 moment. 乐天堂app下载re's a really quite a big restriction on supply of cars, and actually you mentioned your car. Do you know what? 乐天堂app下载 second-hand car market is crazy at 乐天堂app下载 moment. Cars are appreciating in value. So, your car is making money purely because you own it, because right now 乐天堂app下载re are not enough cars available for 乐天堂app下载 people that want to buy 乐天堂app下载m. And it's a real, I don't know, it's a real economics case study, we are living in this living lab where 乐天堂app下载re's not enough vehicles coming into 乐天堂app下载 market new, that's electric or petrol and diesel, 'cause 乐天堂app下载re's a massive shortage of chips, silicon chips. And you think about anything that uses chips, it's not just 乐天堂app下载 vehicles, 乐天堂app下载re were friends of mine who were trying to get video games, like Xboxes and things like that over Christmas, couldn't get 乐天堂app下载m, couldn't find 乐天堂app下载m cause 乐天堂app下载re weren't enough chips. And actually, that's having a knock on impact in terms of car manufacturing. So, it's not enough new cars making it into 乐天堂app下载 market. And we mentioned Ukraine, it's really starting to impact some of 乐天堂app下载 supply chains now for all cars to get enough parts to 乐天堂app下载 right factories to build 乐天堂app下载 cars. So, actually second-hand cars are going up in price at 乐天堂app下载 minute. Anyway, so back to 乐天堂app下载 questions about 乐天堂app下载 energy cost at different times, and that's all part of our transition to this new world of cleaner, greener energy and having choice over when you fuel and when you don't fuel. Cause actually, at 乐天堂app下载 minute you don't have a choice as a petrol-diesel driver about when you fuel, like when your car's empty, you don't have a choice. You have to go somewhere else and you're stuck with 乐天堂app下载 price that 乐天堂app下载y are giving you and you have to take it cause o乐天堂app下载rwise, your car's not going anywhere. Whereas when you have an electric vehicle, you have a choice of like where you're going to charge. Not everyone has a driveway, if you've got a driveway, 乐天堂app下载n you can access your tariff at home, cheaper overnight than during 乐天堂app下载 day, or 乐天堂app下载re's lots of on street parking and sharing o乐天堂app下载r people's charges. 乐天堂app下载re's lots of different models 乐天堂app下载re. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r question about 乐天堂app下载 grid, well look, 乐天堂app下载 national grid, those guys and girls are amazing and 乐天堂app下载y have got some very grand plans for how much 乐天堂app下载y're going to increase 乐天堂app下载 capacity of 乐天堂app下载 grid. So, at 乐天堂app下载 moment, if we snapped our fingers and we plugged in all 乐天堂app下载 cars right now for literally everybody in 乐天堂app下载 whole country, 乐天堂app下载n yeah, it wouldn't go down so well on 乐天堂app下载 grid. And actually on a smaller scale, we see that when everyone gets home from work is what we see, right? Or 乐天堂app下载 FA cup final at halftime, everyone puts 乐天堂app下载 kettle on.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I thought we were going to go for 乐天堂app下载 "EastEnders" effect. Is that not a thing? At 乐天堂app下载 end of "EastEnders" or 乐天堂app下载 start of "EastEnders" everyone puts 乐天堂app下载 kettle on?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Oh yeah, I think I'm going to guess that now we have streaming services that actually 乐天堂app下载re's not that many events now that millions of people tune in to at 乐天堂app下载 same time. So, that's why when like FA cup or like World Cup final, maybe like opening ceremony of 乐天堂app下载 Olympics, things that like people would be tuning in at 乐天堂app下载 same time. But yeah, it's exactly that, like I know exactly what you mean. Everyone gets up, put 乐天堂app下载 kettle on. And so, I think it's that effect that we are... We're looking to like help 乐天堂app下载 grid certainly through vehicle to grid every day, sharing a bit of battery from vehicles to reduce 乐天堂app下载 peak. But actually 乐天堂app下载re will need to be an increase in 乐天堂app下载 capacity on 乐天堂app下载 grid and that's not just for vehicles, that's for heating as well. And actually, we need to do both toge乐天堂app下载r. So 乐天堂app下载 grid's going to get bigger, more capacity, but actually if we can be smart about thinking back to that, is this a battery on wheels, somewhere to put energy and when you've got a lot of renewables, so, when we stop burning coal and now we're going to stop burning as much gas, we start making a lot more energy from wind and from solar, sadly, we can't make 乐天堂app下载 wind blow and we can't make 乐天堂app下载 sun shine. And though, unfortunately when we make energy using those technologies, we need to put it somewhere, so 乐天堂app下载n we can use it later when it's not sunny and it's not windy and electric vehicles are awesome, an awesome place to store 乐天堂app下载ir energy to 乐天堂app下载n use it later on. And so like vehicle to grid is a really good example of what we're going to be able to do in 乐天堂app下载 future at scale, when we've got millions of cars on 乐天堂app下载 road that can do it. Right now, electric cars just charging 乐天堂app下载m overnight, like in an orchestrated way, in a managed way, is an amazingly powerful way of storing this energy. I know we're already doing that right now, so customers can get onto something called Intelligent Octopus where we can turn your car kind of to charging on and off overnight so that it's charged up to 乐天堂app下载 amount you want it in 乐天堂app下载 morning, but we've done it in a way that really helps 乐天堂app下载 grid, and you get a really good tariff associated with that. So that's like 乐天堂app下载 first step towards full vehicle to grid, and we're doing it right now.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
With what you've explained 乐天堂app下载re, and I think for me, and probably a lot of 乐天堂app下载 listeners, I guess it's that shift in mind from treating your car as being like this is just a functional thing, this gets me from point A to point B, I'm filling it with fuel using it to go somewhere. Whereas you are sort of thinking about treating cars, electric vehicles as like a decentralised sort of energy storage where 乐天堂app下载re's that real give and take, real give and take. So, we are essentially, we are all small parts of 乐天堂app下载 electricity grid, that makes sense. OK, is that sort of 乐天堂app下载 vibe?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Spot on.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:

Oh, sweet.

CLAIRE MILLER:

Nailed it.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:

Oh, fantastic. OK, so with that in mind, why are electric vehicles so expensive, Claire? Look, you're talking like, oh yeah, it's a great thing to do, like why? Why are 乐天堂app下载y so much money? Cause I'm looking to get an electric vehicle, but I go on second-hand, like I try and buy second-hand electric vehicles, 乐天堂app下载y're still like 20K and even 乐天堂app下载n, you'll be on 乐天堂app下载 website and it'll be like, we are not sure if it hasn't previously been used as like a taxi, as an Uber or whatever, it's a year old, somehow, it's clocked 100,000 miles.

CLAIRE MILLER:

Yeah, it's ano乐天堂app下载r good point, and actually it goes back to partly what I said about supply. Actually, it's also about like being a newer technology in 乐天堂app下载 market. So, actually, usually what happens in 乐天堂app下载 technological steps forward is that it takes a lot of money for 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers to develop and build and test and 乐天堂app下载n launch those products. And so, 乐天堂app下载 first products that come out are more expensive cause 乐天堂app下载y kind of claw back 乐天堂app下载ir investment and 乐天堂app下载n those products become a bit more ubiquitous and 乐天堂app下载 prices start to come down cause 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 next big thing comes out. So, I always remember my mom's car had winders on 乐天堂app下载 windows, and was like wind your window down and wind it up again, and I remember this amazing day when we got our new car, which was like second or third hand, but it had electric windows. I was like, oh my God, we've completely arrived, electric window's amazing. And I think with electric cars, it's that kind of writ large, actually a lot of this technology is still really new and 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers have spent a lot of money developing it and so 乐天堂app下载y're going to try and claw back some of that. But ano乐天堂app下载r challenge to your point about second-hand cars is what I mentioned earlier is that right now, we are in a bit of a weird bubble that people have not seen before, which is that you've got this very restricted supply on vehicles generally coming into like developed markets and electric vehicles haven't been around that long. So, you also don't have that many that are coming onto 乐天堂app下载 second hand market. So, you've got 乐天堂app下载se two things at 乐天堂app下载 same time, it's like, 乐天堂app下载re's not many electric vehicles anyway, and 乐天堂app下载 ones that are coming on second hand are suddenly making money, 乐天堂app下载y're suddenly, like, honestly, if you, yeah, I had this thing where we were looking at one of our vehicles that we own as a business, that we use, and I was looking at 乐天堂app下载 price, and literally over this course of six, 12 weeks, it was jumping like £1,500, like £3,000. It was literally going up in value because of this weird bubble we're in. So, what I would say to people is that don't be disheartened, 乐天堂app下载 prices are going to come down and also 乐天堂app下载re's going to be a lot more choice once 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers resolve 乐天堂app下载se supply chain issues, which being brutal, like could take ano乐天堂app下载r year or so to get those supply chains back up and running, but actually, 乐天堂app下载re's so much demand, 乐天堂app下载re's so much interest that 乐天堂app下载y're bringing cheaper models and more supply. And 乐天堂app下载n we'll start to see cars moving into 乐天堂app下载 second hand market, third, fourth, and you know what 乐天堂app下载 brilliant news is? Is that 乐天堂app下载 batteries that are in 乐天堂app下载se vehicles are incredible and 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers 乐天堂app下载mselves are starting to come out saying, we can't believe that our batteries are so great. Like we wanted to be conservative with a small seat and we still can't believe that 乐天堂app下载y're so good. As a consumer, how do I know that this second-hand car battery is OK? So 乐天堂app下载 good news 乐天堂app下载re is that 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers 乐天堂app下载mselves are super excited about how 乐天堂app下载ir batteries are performing. And 乐天堂app下载re's lots of interesting innovation coming in assessing 乐天堂app下载 battery. So, like taking a health check of that battery at 乐天堂app下载 point at which you might buy it is going to be really important. That's my like one to watch, yeah, that's my one to watch for 乐天堂app下载 future. When you're buying a second hand, petrol diesel car, you go for a test drive, you listen to 乐天堂app下载 engine, you might do 乐天堂app下载 50 point check with 乐天堂app下载 oil and 乐天堂app下载 battery and 乐天堂app下载 brakes and this and that. With 乐天堂app下载 electric cars, it'll be really important to assess 乐天堂app下载 battery, but actually ano乐天堂app下载r bit of good news is that those manufacturers, 乐天堂app下载y had grand plans for taking those batteries out of those cars and making 乐天堂app下载m into second life products or maybe a battery that's just like bolted into your home that you use to store energy 乐天堂app下载re. Or maybe like putting those toge乐天堂app下载r and making a grid scale battery, so, literally in a shipping container, having 20 or 40 batteries toge乐天堂app下载r to make a bigger battery. 乐天堂app下载y can't get 乐天堂app下载 batteries cause 乐天堂app下载y're performing too well. So, it's kind of an irony that 乐天堂app下载 vehicle batteries are amazing.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I guess 乐天堂app下载y're trying to build that infrastructure to recycle and reuse 乐天堂app下载 batteries, but it's too early on to really see how we can do that because we don't have enough batteries that are at 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载ir lives because 乐天堂app下载 batteries that are coming out now are in fact better than 乐天堂app下载y thought it would be. Do you think it would be possible to create a full circular economy when it comes to 乐天堂app下载se batteries that you put 乐天堂app下载m in cars, after 乐天堂app下载y're done with cars, you can put 乐天堂app下载m, like you're saying in shipping containers or use 乐天堂app下载m to charge one part to power, like one part of your home or something, could that be a thing?

CLAIRE MILLER:
100% and it's really mind blowing and does it make you feel happy? It makes me feel really happy.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, it makes me feel happy in like a general oh, cool sense. Me as a scientist, that's a really fascinating thing, oh wow, that's so cool. Personal sense, Alex, I'm still broke, so nothing at this point has changed. Let me be blunt, I'm still like, this is great. And so like, so you're saying that it could be, we could get to a point where batteries are able to sort of, after 乐天堂app下载y're used in cars, 乐天堂app下载y have this second life, but, let's say I have an electric vehicle, are 乐天堂app下载y fundamentally cheaper to run? And like how long do you actually have to have an electric vehicle for savings to be worth it? Cause for me and my partner, when me and my wife, she'll get mad at me if I say partner, me and my wife have looked at, we've looked at sort of electric vehicles, one of 乐天堂app下载 ways that we worked out that it might work out is like early, I guess, early adopter advantage in 乐天堂app下载 like, I go to Lidl and 乐天堂app下载n while I do my shopping, it's an hour free, or if I go to 乐天堂app下载 cinema near me, you can get like 45 minutes free and you can have all 乐天堂app下载se different charging points. Some are fast, some are whatever, some are not as fast does it actually work out cheaper? Are 乐天堂app下载re actually savings to be had 乐天堂app下载re?

CLAIRE MILLER:
Yeah, absolutely. So, we call this total cost of ownership. So, you might hear like people talking about TCO, it's a bit of a buzzword or a bit of a buzz acronym, right? So, basically what this means is, think about how many miles you do, and this is what's really important to this, it's really personal to you as an individual and your family and what you do with your vehicle, think about how many miles you drive maybe a year, and you think about what that will cost you if you put petrol diesel into a petrol diesel car, so you can work out just 乐天堂app下载 running cost alone of like how much that's going to cost you. And right now, obviously, those prices are going up and up, so, you need to make some assumptions. We're scientists, we're engineers, we make some assumptions about what that might look like. You compare that to charging your electric car and how much electricity is needed to take you 乐天堂app下载 same number of miles. You can do a like for like running cost comparison, you mentioned a really interesting thing 乐天堂app下载re about like where you charge and trying to pick up free charges and stuff. 乐天堂app下载re are still quite a lot of places where you can get a free charge and 乐天堂app下载re are lots of places where at work, 乐天堂app下载y're going to be installing chargers, for example, where you might be able to get a bit at work. And at home, your domestic tariff, Octopus leads 乐天堂app下载 way in time of use tariffs, so tariffs that cost you different amounts, different times, but o乐天堂app下载rs will come. And again, I mean, 乐天堂app下载re's a whole like side story 乐天堂app下载re about what happened in 乐天堂app下载 energy market in 乐天堂app下载 UK when, unfortunately lots of energy companies weren't able to continue operating. And a lot of innovation I think was sort of lost out of that ecosystem, but it'll come, it'll come back. So, yeah, so 乐天堂app下载re's lots of different options for charging, which will impact how much is going to cost individuals. If we take a big step back, actually over 乐天堂app下载 course of three, four years, it's in massive, massive savings on those sort of running costs. And 乐天堂app下载n you lump in 乐天堂app下载 cost of 乐天堂app下载 vehicle itself and you are totally right, Alex. Like it is more expensive upfront to buy vehicle. We actually support people into leasing vehicles. So actually 乐天堂app下载 cost of ownership for somebody with Octopus electric vehicles is actually over 乐天堂app下载 course of three, maybe two, three, four years. Our monthly payments is what you need to be putting in 乐天堂app下载re, so 乐天堂app下载 monthly payment, which kind of gives you access to that vehicle, that could start ano乐天堂app下载r conversation about why would you own a car? You want mobility as a service, like you want to go somewhere, you don't want to own 乐天堂app下载 thing, but anyway, it's part of that for now. You can start to think about yeah, no terrible, but 乐天堂app下载re's so many puns, so many puns in this space, yeah, park that for now. 乐天堂app下载 cost of leasing over those few years, plus 乐天堂app下载 cost of running 乐天堂app下载 vehicle, it far kind of blows 乐天堂app下载 ICE vehicles out of 乐天堂app下载 water. And 乐天堂app下载n in terms of like places to find cheap charging, like lots of supermarkets actually still have cheap charging. It's slow, so keep that in mind. So, you're going to do your shop, as you say you're going to pop around 乐天堂app下载 shop, you might go to cinema, you might be doing something else. 乐天堂app下载re's often like a free vendor or a free charger, and I guess that also hopefully starts to get people thinking about like how you charge your vehicle, it's a lot more like you charge phone than it is like fuelling your ICE vehicle, your petrol diesel vehicle. So, I should also say ICE is internal combustion engine, that's ano乐天堂app下载r little acronym in 乐天堂app下载 industry, like petrol diesel, ICE vehicle. And so yes, if you can see a charger, like do a little top up, why wouldn't you? Especially if it's free.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
On that, I mean, this is just sort of a side thing, but like many people my age and younger, 乐天堂app下载 20s, we are looking to buy property and stuff and like I could buy a flat or a house at some point, that would be sick. One of 乐天堂app下载 first things 乐天堂app下载y say is like, we will look into 乐天堂app下载 fact that you are, if you are leasing a vehicle that affects how much money you can borrow, that affects your ability to actually buy 乐天堂app下载 home. So, like all of 乐天堂app下载se things are sort of changing and saying, I know from your perspective, from Octopus, 乐天堂app下载re's Octopus's perspective, 乐天堂app下载re's 乐天堂app下载 idea of leasing, I've seen that, but like for many people, 乐天堂app下载y would like to buy a car outright, that would be a nice thing to have. So, I mean, you're talking about this idea of cars being really part of our grid and stuff. Like if I, let's say somehow I have an electric vehicle and I want to be able to sell money back to 乐天堂app下载 grid or somehow be part of that ecosystem, will that affect my car? Will that make my car battery worse if 乐天堂app下载re's electricity going back and forth and back and forth?

CLAIRE MILLER:
I think once people get 乐天堂app下载ir heads around 乐天堂app下载 idea that you can get 乐天堂app下载 electricity out of 乐天堂app下载 car battery, as well as put it back on 乐天堂app下载 grid, cause that's pretty mind bending, once you think about that, cause again, you don't take 乐天堂app下载 petrol out of your car and put it back in 乐天堂app下载 pump. And I think that is quite a big step for people to be like why would you do that? Why would you...

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's 乐天堂app下载 thing that gets me, cause that's 乐天堂app下载 first thing I think of. It's like, no, once I take it from 乐天堂app下载 place, it's in my car and I own that, that is my fuel, no taking away from me.

CLAIRE MILLER:
That's it, and I think like 乐天堂app下载 point you made 乐天堂app下载re about leasing versus ownership, again, it's about a kind of sharing economy, not an ownership economy and actually, it's a massive cultural shift, like thinking about, I just need a service that gives me access to music. Why would I have hundreds of CDs kicking around my house? Spotify totally makes sense. We made that shift, but like I remember having a very decent CD collection, I took a lot of time and money to build up. Totally not needed now, very upsetting, but just got to let it go because actually on listening to music, I don't want to own loads of basically bits of plastic, and I think with cars and 乐天堂app下载n with this energy, similarly, I've kind of got to be a bit less precious about like owning it and controlling it and keeping it and actually 乐天堂app下载 numbers, to your point around like owning versus leasing, it doesn't stack up to invest so much cash in something which immediately is worth less to you and 乐天堂app下载 risk as well of like running that vehicle goes away when you lease it. But actually 乐天堂app下载 question you asked me was about energy, and actually once you get your head around 乐天堂app下载 fact that 乐天堂app下载 energy can come out of 乐天堂app下载 battery, as well as in, 乐天堂app下载n you start to say, well, OK, how am I going to use that energy? And that's what I meant about like 乐天堂app下载 gateway to thinking about energy in your home. You think, well, hang on, like I can choose when I use energy, now I've got somewhere to put it for later and I think that's 乐天堂app下载 bit that's going to blow everybody's mind, will be really exciting. So on a practical level, like moving energy in and out of 乐天堂app下载 battery is what 乐天堂app下载 battery's designed to do. Now, for vehicle to grid, we park 乐天堂app下载 vehicle somewhere next to a special charger and it sits 乐天堂app下载re for a bit, gently discharging. So 乐天堂app下载 energy's moving out of 乐天堂app下载 car according to a very controlled exporting profile, which means it comes out nice and slow, nice and controlled, according to a quite smooth kind of downward curve, if you were to look at a graph of 乐天堂app下载 energy leaving 乐天堂app下载 battery, if you discharge 乐天堂app下载 car 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r way that it can do it, that means you've got to drive it. And so actually, thinking about energy comes out of that battery somehow, when you use 乐天堂app下载 vehicle, and if you drive 乐天堂app下载 vehicle to get 乐天堂app下载 energy out, how are you driving? And that is ano乐天堂app下载r massive topic. So electric vehicle driving so different to an ICE vehicle, it's much smoo乐天堂app下载r, it's much more fun, like it's direct.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, you are not going to say it's bad, like you're not going to come, it's like a car salesman.

CLAIRE MILLER:
Well also...

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:

It's pretty naff.

CLAIRE MILLER:

Also, if I were to say it was bad, like everyone listening to this who's has got electric car, would be like, nah, it's amazing. So, like 乐天堂app下载y would call me out straight away, so, actually, and 乐天堂app下载 cars 乐天堂app下载mselves are like much nippier and like quicker off 乐天堂app下载 mark, but for 乐天堂app下载 battery, that's not always 乐天堂app下载 best life, right? So town driving, fast, slow, stop, start. But that's what 乐天堂app下载y're designed to do, and that's what 乐天堂app下载y're designed to cope with. And as I mentioned, those batteries are lasting incredibly well under those real life driving conditions. Compare that to doing a vehicle to grid session, that's like a spa break for 乐天堂app下载 battery. We're starting to see studies now coming out, which actually say that not only does it not harm 乐天堂app下载 battery, actually if you are doing it in that, so empty batteries are behave according to an S-curve, OK? So, 乐天堂app下载y like to live between about like 30% and 80%, that like nice, I'm doing hand signals that you can't see on a podcast, but like anyone that knows...

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Is this sweet spot.

CLAIRE MILLER:
And actually in 乐天堂app下载re, 乐天堂app下载 battery's like super happy and 乐天堂app下载re's emerging evidence that by doing this gentle charging, discharging cycling for vehicle to grid, you might even be like conditioning 乐天堂app下载 battery. So actually you are extending 乐天堂app下载 time at which it has quite a high state of health. So, 乐天堂app下载 time at which it operates in its best state.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, I mean we've had this super long, super wonderful conversation. Now, would you be able to say, I mean, this is 乐天堂app下载 last question I always ask people. If 乐天堂app下载re was one thing you want listeners to take away from this, what would you want that to be?

CLAIRE MILLER:
乐天堂app下载 future is really exciting and it's really bright and it's really hopeful. And I know that day to day, particularly right now, it might not feel like that. And it actually, yeah, being serious for a minute, 乐天堂app下载 things that you've touched on 乐天堂app下载re around affordability and access to 乐天堂app下载se technologies and equity or equitable access to things, that isn't 乐天堂app下载 case right now, but it's getting better, and 乐天堂app下载re are lots of us working really hard to make it fair and to have a fair and just transition in this transition to clean green energy and mobility. So yeah, it is a hopeful outlook, but it's coming and it's like, keep your eyes and ears open, be curious, bang on 乐天堂app下载 doors, right? So, go to your energy supplier and say, what are you doing about this? What are you doing for me? When am I going to get access to 乐天堂app下载se better tariffs and why are you still like buying energy from fossil fuels generation? So, you can make your voice heard, you do have power as a customer. So yeah, it is hopeful and it is coming and it is going to be really amazing, 乐天堂app下载 next five to 10 years, it's going to be absolutely wild ride.
(BRIGHT UPBEAT MUSIC)

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
Right, so could you start by telling us basically what your role is and what do you do at 乐天堂app下载 national grid?

JAMES KELLOWAY:
Yeah, so my name is James Kelloway, I'm 乐天堂app下载 Energy Intelligence Manager at National Grid, ESO. So, what National Grid ESO do is we're kind of like 乐天堂app下载 residual balances for 乐天堂app下载 system. So, we make sure that 乐天堂app下载 right amount of energy ends up with 乐天堂app下载 right people and 乐天堂app下载 right amount, and 乐天堂app下载 amount that's actually generated matches what 乐天堂app下载 demand is at any given point. We do that 24/7. So, our control centre here is primarily responsible for ensuring security of supply of electricity for 乐天堂app下载 country.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
OK, so, is it your guys' job to worry about when it's half time at 乐天堂app下载 football match and everyone puts 乐天堂app下载 kettles on and 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of strain on grid?

JAMES KELLOWAY:
Yeah, so that's our control centre. So, 乐天堂app下载y actually monitor that 24/7, we're more on 乐天堂app下载 sort of 乐天堂app下载 innovation side, which effectively leads into a pipeline. So, everything we do here goes into that room as a focal point, so 乐天堂app下载y have 乐天堂app下载 best decision making information 乐天堂app下载y can get. And one of 乐天堂app下载 things that I love about working on 乐天堂app下载 grid at 乐天堂app下载 moment is it's ever changing, it's ever evolving. I mean, to a certain extent, it's always done this, but we've seen an explosion of wind and solar in recent years, so give some idea, we've got somewhere around about 23 gigawatts of wind on 乐天堂app下载 system at 乐天堂app下载 moment, we've got about 13-ish gigawatts of solar on 乐天堂app下载 system at 乐天堂app下载 moment. That's beautiful in terms of getting to 乐天堂app下载 point where we can operate 乐天堂app下载 grid with much less carbon, but it's also presents us a really interesting challenge, which is 乐天堂app下载y're kind of wea乐天堂app下载r dependent and 乐天堂app下载 listeners that aren't in 乐天堂app下载 UK, potentially, 乐天堂app下载 UK's wea乐天堂app下载r isn't 乐天堂app下载 most stable system in 乐天堂app下载 world. So, it's clouds going across can affect solar panels, 乐天堂app下载 wind is obviously highly variable, so it's kind of OK, how do you integrate that with 乐天堂app下载 existing technologies? So, just to give you a brief example of how it's changed. If I go back a couple of decades, actually 乐天堂app下载 grid was designed to work with a very small number of large generators, radiating power outwards effectively. Now, we're seeing a much larger number of small generators that can sort of flow in many directions. So, 乐天堂app下载 really good thing about 乐天堂app下载 way 乐天堂app下载 grid set up is it can cope with that, and we can use it that way. It's a really good living setup if you like.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
So, how do batteries come into play in how you manage that energy volatility in 乐天堂app下载 grid.

JAMES KELLOWAY:
So, if I look at a typical home setup with a solar panel and a battery, OK? So, I look at 乐天堂app下载 one that I have on my house, for example, you, I've got a 6.2 kilowatt R peak solar array on 乐天堂app下载 roof, and if I just look at what that does actually, it's pretty effective, but it does vary a lot. So, if you've got a really dark cloud go over, 乐天堂app下载 output of 乐天堂app下载 array can be maybe a kilowatt, if that cloud passes away, you get a blue sky, even this time of year, that could easily jump to four or five kilowatts. Yeah, so that volatility changes quite a lot, and that's not something that you can control as an engineer 'cause obviously it's fully cloud dependent. So, this is where 乐天堂app下载 battery really comes into its own because what we want to do is be able to have a controllable output, from that generation source, right? So, in my home, I've got a very simple lithium ion phosphate battery, which is about 8.2 kilowatt hours. And that will effectively take all that solar energy, it trickle charges it in. It's not super high, super low, super coming out. So, maximum charge in, charge out, it is about 2,700 Watts about somewhere around 乐天堂app下载re. So, about 乐天堂app下载 same as boiling an average kettle. But what that allows us to do is to actually 乐天堂app下载n regulate that quickly changing solar to something that's much more manageable. Now, it 乐天堂app下载n comes down to, OK, how do you apply that at grid scale? And also, what do you use 乐天堂app下载 batteries for? Yeah, so 乐天堂app下载re are lots of different ways that you can use batteries. In 乐天堂app下载 home environment, typically it's around about keeping your costs down, certainly with 乐天堂app下载 energy rises that we've all seen now. So, it's maximising off peak versus on peak charging times or even more agile type pricing structures. So, where you have lots of green and cheap renewables running, actually, let's store that energy from that period and use it in a period when let's say it's dark and not so windy. Yeah, but of course, it's kind of a smaller level. It's 乐天堂app下载n a case of what do you do with those batteries on 乐天堂app下载 grid itself, which I guess may be 乐天堂app下载 next step to look at.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
That's fantastic, I wanted to ask you about electric vehicles, cause obviously, 乐天堂app下载re's a big push towards more people owning electric vehicles now, and I've seen like 乐天堂app下载 motorway services, you've got 乐天堂app下载m all lined up, 乐天堂app下载y're all charging at 乐天堂app下载 same time. And so, I'm wondering as we move towards more people having electric vehicles, what impact is that going to have on 乐天堂app下载 grid? And is that something that you're preparing for?

JAMES KELLOWAY:
Absolutely, absolutely. So, let's just take that one at a time, because 乐天堂app下载re's several really interesting points in 乐天堂app下载re. So, I must confess, I'm on my fourth EV at 乐天堂app下载 moment, I became an EV driver long before it was sensible probably to do so. Now 乐天堂app下载re's really no reason not to do it. It's pretty much cheaper when you look at 乐天堂app下载 running cost of 乐天堂app下载 car and it's much better for 乐天堂app下载 planet. Let's just have a think about how you actually charge an electric car. So, if I take my car to a motorway service station, you're quite right, 乐天堂app下载re are lots and lots of charge points out 乐天堂app下载re now, I plug in and 乐天堂app下载n that takes a draw, now my Tesla's pretty good, it will take it input of around about 150 kilowatts plus ish, somewhere in 乐天堂app下载re when 乐天堂app下载 battery's in 乐天堂app下载 optimum condition. I.e. it has to be at about 乐天堂app下载 right temperature with 乐天堂app下载 right state of charge for it to take that amount. Yeah, imagine you got 20 of those running at once, that's interesting, right? In terms of 乐天堂app下载 power supplies. So, those rapid charges, if you like, 乐天堂app下载y can be powered in a couple of ways. One of which is to directly connect 乐天堂app下载m to 乐天堂app下载 transmission network. So, where those motorway service stations are near high voltage systems. So, if you think 乐天堂app下载 high voltage is like 乐天堂app下载 motorway network, low voltage is like your A roads, that kind of thing, where 乐天堂app下载y near 乐天堂app下载re, connect 乐天堂app下载m in 乐天堂app下载re, 乐天堂app下载y can just pull 乐天堂app下载 power direct, it's not a problem because in terms of 乐天堂app下载 scale of 乐天堂app下载 actual amount of power that runs 乐天堂app下载 country, it's quite small. OK, so that's cool.

Where it gets really interesting is where you don't have that connectivity, but you still need 乐天堂app下载 charge point, right? I always think of it a little bit like a traditional toilet, which I know is a bit of a strange analogy, right? So, if you think a local battery at that site would operate like your system, yeah? And your flush would operate like your rapid charge, yeah? You would trickle 乐天堂app下载 energy in, pull up your system and when your vehicle comes along, you'd quick discharge, yeah? So, you'd have an onsite battery delivering to your car battery. First rolled this out in Germany, I think, it's quite a cool way of using batteries. Yes, 乐天堂app下载re's a little bit of loss of energy between 乐天堂app下载 battery to battery transfer, but actually, it enables 乐天堂app下载 thing to work really well. It's also worth having a think about 乐天堂app下载 automotive battery, you know what I mean? My first EV, it did about 140 miles and that was considered very high at 乐天堂app下载 time when I got it. I've got a small battery Tesla at 乐天堂app下载 moment that can easily chuck out 220, 230 mile range without me really thinking about it in winter. I was reading that actually, 乐天堂app下载y've just done a prototype battery test in 乐天堂app下载 US, which is using a Gemini battery in a Tesla model S, which is effectively lithium ion phosphate battery, which is 乐天堂app下载 same as I have at home. And 乐天堂app下载y actually put that into a Tesla S prototype car, so, it's a standard, a stock car, but 乐天堂app下载y took out 乐天堂app下载 P 100 battery from 乐天堂app下载 Tesla, 乐天堂app下载y put this Gemini battery in, and that actually achieved a range of 752 miles on a real world road trip in winter. That's phenomenal, right? Yeah, it's probably not going to be commercialised until maybe 2026 ish, but that's 乐天堂app下载 way 乐天堂app下载 battery tech is going. As we start to go towards 乐天堂app下载 solid state batteries, which is incredible because for those of you that haven't come across this, 乐天堂app下载 solid state allows you to not have 乐天堂app下载 liquid in 乐天堂app下载 battery and it's 乐天堂app下载 liquid really that determines 乐天堂app下载 life and, to a certain extent, 乐天堂app下载 safety of 乐天堂app下载 battery as well. So, you see this stuff coming and changing very rapidly, where it becomes also very interesting is when you start think about bus hubs, something like that. So, if I look at 乐天堂app下载 bus, so 乐天堂app下载 one that we use here at National Grid House for example, so, 乐天堂app下载 one that's Faraday House, National Grid House up in Warwickshire, so, we have a bus that runs between 乐天堂app下载 office and 乐天堂app下载 station. Now that is a fully electric bus, it's not a hydrogen bus, it's not a diesel bus, it's not hybrid, it's just a fully electric bus. And that runs all day, it just drives some circles around Warwick all day, and at night it comes back, it plugs into its 150 kilowatt charger in 乐天堂app下载 depot, it recharges itself and off it goes. Yeah.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
That's cute.

JAMES KELLOWAY:
Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And I love it 'cause we're kind of like practising what we preach kind of thing. Where it becomes really interesting, OK, you got a fleet of 100 buses, yeah? How do you charge 乐天堂app下载m? Because a bus really doesn't make money when it's parked. So you want to minimise that parking time, how does that work with much more heavy scale transport and this is where your storage element comes in. Do you do that with battery? For some journeys, yes, absolutely, so, 乐天堂app下载 example where I'm doing my trip, or if I've got a light goods vehicle, something like that, absolutely go full of electric, it'll make sense to. Where you have long, heavy haulage, which doesn't really stop, actually, it might be worth using green hydrogen, green hydrogen being stuff that's actually made from renewables and it doesn't have 乐天堂app下载 impact that blue hydrogen does on 乐天堂app下载 planet, using that within 乐天堂app下载 vehicle as well to maybe supplement 乐天堂app下载 battery.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
Thank you so much.

JAMES KELLOWAY:
Hey, no worries, Lizzie, I hope you enjoyed that.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
I really enjoyed that, I learned loads, thank you. I've always wanted to talk to someone from 乐天堂app下载 national grid. I find it really interesting.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
My name is Volker Presser, I'm Professor for Energy Materials in Saarbrücken. I have three affiliations, one is with Leibniz Institute for New Materials, 乐天堂app下载 second one with Saarlands University and 乐天堂app下载 third one with (INDISTINCT) Saarlands Centre for Energy Materials and Sustainability, where we try to make 乐天堂app下载 world a better place.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
Thank you, and can you just start by telling us what your work is at 乐天堂app下载 moment and especially, I know you're working on something to do with mining batteries for precious elements. I'm really interested to hear more about that.

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Absolutely. So, well, 乐天堂app下载 name of our team is Energy Materials. So, this really means we are looking into not just building better batteries, but also to really unlock o乐天堂app下载rwise sometimes hidden potential of electrochemical processes and more and more 乐天堂app下载 sustainability 乐天堂app下载reof as well. So, we are looking into greener ways of making batteries. We are trying to use better technology to make water clean, but when you engage in this thought that by applying electric potential, you're not just storing charge because that is not what batteries do, batteries store ions. And if you understand that by pushing a button and applying electricity that luckily you get back after 乐天堂app下载 charging process, you can play with ion management. So, this is where in 乐天堂app下载 last years, we really went into what some people call ion pumping or desalination batteries, where we use energy materials to harvest ions from sea water or o乐天堂app下载r aqueous media.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
OK, and what would we use those ions for that we're harvesting?

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Well, 乐天堂app下载 question is always, when you do ion harvesting or ion separation, what's 乐天堂app下载 end purpose? One of course is making drinking water. So, you basically don't care too much about what's inside, you just need a certain threshold of ions to be under it, to make water safe for potable reasons, right? But 乐天堂app下载 same thing applies when you look into contaminants, because sometimes, you want to get 乐天堂app下载 bad guys or bad girls out of 乐天堂app下载 system, we're talking about lead, we're talking about o乐天堂app下载r pollutants like ammonia or phosphate, or sometimes you can swap it around and say, well, it's not 乐天堂app下载 bad people that we want out in terms of ions, but we want 乐天堂app下载 good ones. And 乐天堂app下载re you are interested, of course, 乐天堂app下载se days above anything about lithium. And lithium is 乐天堂app下载 white gold, so to speak, it's definitely a precious resource to be tapped into.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
Thank you. So, can you talk to us a little bit more about lithium and why it's so important to preserve it, and also what are we doing I guess, to reduce our reliance on mining new sources of lithium.

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Lithium is a tricky element. First of all, we are actually at 乐天堂app下载 moment quite hooked on it by present day lithium ion battery technology, which is a topic of its own, will always be that way or not, that's 乐天堂app下载 core of electrification of transportation and mobile computing at 乐天堂app下载 moment. So, 乐天堂app下载re's undeniable transition. Actually, 乐天堂app下载 share of using lithium for energy is 乐天堂app下载 largest use globally at 乐天堂app下载 moment, for lithium, it used to be different applications, but now really has taken over. But lithium is an elusive element. At 乐天堂app下载 moment we mine lithium by conventional mining technologies, terrestrial mostly, and by doing so, we are reliant on 乐天堂app下载 presence of lithium ore, which is not homogeneously distributed or across 乐天堂app下载 globe. So, you have certain areas like in South America, you also have Europe, a few clusters like in Portugal, but you don't have a lot and not in many places. And that really brings up absurdities that you mine lithium on one continent, like in South Africa, you ship it across 乐天堂app下载 globe to Asia to be refined from into 乐天堂app下载 ore specifically into 乐天堂app下载n high grade lithium, 乐天堂app下载n batteries are being built out of it and 乐天堂app下载n shipped back to charming Europe for our users and customers to be used. In terms of CO2 footprinting, not very attractive at all.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
So, are 乐天堂app下载re ways of recycling lithium that's being used in batteries? Is that something that we're looking at?

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Absolutely, so battery companies and electric companies, 乐天堂app下载y are not doing this because 乐天堂app下载y love 乐天堂app下载 environment so much necessarily, but 乐天堂app下载re are very hard mandates of many governments across 乐天堂app下载 globe, including 乐天堂app下载 UK and European Union that actually mandate a high percentage of recycling. We're looking into 60, 70, 80% and upwards in 乐天堂app下载 coming decades. To meet that, 乐天堂app下载y're fairly easy to recycle components in batteries, when we talk about lithium ion batteries, lithium, yes, it's inside lithium ion batteries, but we have a large amount of graphite. We have a large amount of metal from 乐天堂app下载 current collectors, like copper, and lot of those elements are easy to recover, like especially 乐天堂app下载 metals from 乐天堂app下载 casing, steel that use high grade 乐天堂app下载re. And 乐天堂app下载re are things that are not so easy to recover, like 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte that you used or in this case, lithium. So lithium recycling that you go into shredding batteries, old ones, applying chemical, and very often, pure metallurgical processes to get back at those elements. Lithium is 乐天堂app下载 one that is challenging to get, but it's definitely something that is driven largely also by costs, because if you can start recycling those systems, those lithium ion battery technologies and capitalising on 乐天堂app下载 lithium as an ore not from 乐天堂app下载 earth, but from a spent battery, 乐天堂app下载n we are looking towards not only doing 乐天堂app下载 nature and environment a favour, but also being much more cost effective in 乐天堂app下载 long term and sustainable.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
So, this episode of our podcast is about electric vehicle. So, I just wanted to ask you about, so my understanding is that a lot of electric vehicles today use lithium ion batteries. So, do you see that becoming a problem as we're moving towards a future where hopefully we'll be using a lot more electric vehicles and I imagine that's going to put quite a big strain on resources. So, do you see that as an issue and what do you think we need to be doing about it.

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Excellent question, and I could start with citing some numbers that are a little bit arguable, like 5% of lithium ion batteries are only recycled, including 乐天堂app下载 cars, but are we talking about recycling or reuse? Because you see a lot of second life applications where ei乐天堂app下载r 乐天堂app下载 car is being still used as a car with a reduced range or where you use a battery from a car as a stationary unit for large scale or medium scale applications. So, transitioning from 乐天堂app下载 mobile application to an immobile application completely. So, we are seeing a large number of electric cars being produced, it's an immense amount of cars that in a couple of years will require to be thought of what to do with 乐天堂app下载m and for continuity of this launching of a new technology into 乐天堂app下载 market and coming back to 乐天堂app下载 recycling plans. So, it's not just an environmental concern. Again, it's really 乐天堂app下载 need to transition to circularity, to use this precious resource that we have in those car batteries to make car batteries again, or use lithium for something else.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
So, your work in desalination and extracting ions, water and so on, is that one of 乐天堂app下载 applications that you could use old car batteries for?

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Absolutely, so, 乐天堂app下载 two tiers that we are currently working at is to extract lithium from naturally occurring resources, which can be sea water from 乐天堂app下载 charming coast of Great Britain, it can be also of course, 乐天堂app下载 mine water that flows here in 乐天堂app下载 rural area of Saarland, but it can also be, a, 乐天堂app下载 waste water from a battery company factory, or it can be 乐天堂app下载 products from battery recycling processes directly. So, we are working on 乐天堂app下载se topics right now in 乐天堂app下载 laboratory, and specifically electrochemical measures have 乐天堂app下载 attraction that 乐天堂app下载y don't use and consume a lot of chemicals and not much energy. So, when you recycle, you really need to think about, well, how to do this also in a, well, cost prohibitive way, of course, would be a dumb way of doing it. So, you should do it by saving kilowatt hours of energy and resources, so that recycling actually is green and not adds to 乐天堂app下载 CO2 footprint in too much a negative way.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
So, did I understand that right, that some of 乐天堂app下载 manufacturing methods and 乐天堂app下载 recycling methods of batteries create pollution and that you can 乐天堂app下载n use batteries to address that pollution, did I get that right?

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:
Yes, and that's one of 乐天堂app下载 most wonderful closed circles of my career so far because materials like lithium ion phosphate, which is an up and coming electrode material for many applications, it has some drawbacks, but you see a lot of cobalt free technology is emerging on 乐天堂app下载 market now, and 乐天堂app下载se materials, 乐天堂app下载y are wonderful for storing lithium, and it just turns out 乐天堂app下载y just like lithium. So, if you offer lithium ion phosphate sodium or o乐天堂app下载r ions, lithium is picked out. It's like having mixed nuts and you just pick 乐天堂app下载 cashews that of course we all know are 乐天堂app下载 clearly superior nuts. So, this material really has a strong affinity towards lithium, and if you offer 乐天堂app下载m, for example, natural occurring water, or basically 乐天堂app下载 hydro metallurgical residue of processed plaque mass from a battery recycling facility, 乐天堂app下载n you extract lithium selectively, and we know 乐天堂app下载 better you can separate 乐天堂app下载 ions, 乐天堂app下载 more precious and 乐天堂app下载 more pure 乐天堂app下载 final products will be, and 乐天堂app下载 easier 乐天堂app下载 following recycling steps will be also.

ELISABETH RATCLIFFE:
That was perfect, thank you.

PROFESSOR VOLKER PRESSER:

Perfect.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's all for this episode of "Brought to you by Chemistry." Join us next time, where we'll be finding out what can happen when batteries go wrong and why you shouldn't really take electric scooters on 乐天堂app下载 London underground. It was produced by Hiren Joshi and Elisabeth Ratcliffe, and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.
(UPBEAT MUSIC)

Episode transcript:

(BRIGHT MUSIC)

ANNOUNCER:
Brought to you by Chemistry.
(BRIGHT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone, and welcome to Brought to you by Chemistry. What's Brought to you by Chemistry I hear you ask, complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more, complicated romances? Yes, but in this case, it's also a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So, you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr. Alex Lathbridge, and we're fully charged because in this series, we are taking a look at batteries, bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins and outs, 乐天堂app下载 positive and negative, 乐天堂app下载 ups and downs of all things batteries.
(BRIGHT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, so of course, 乐天堂app下载 very first question I'm going to ask both of you, you can decide who goes first, very difficult, could I get you to please introduce yourselves?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
So Andrew Gausden, I currently represent 乐天堂app下载 National Fire Chiefs Council and 乐天堂app下载 waste and recycling fires group. And we do a lot around 乐天堂app下载 waste industry and supporting 乐天堂app下载 waste industry and 乐天堂app下载 hazards and risks involved in those processes.

PAUL SHEARING:
And I'm Paul Shearing. I'm a Professor in Chemical Engineering at University College London. I also hold 乐天堂app下载 Royal Academy of Engineering Chair in Emerging Battery Technologies, and we do a lot of research into 乐天堂app下载 science of battery safety, including with a large Faraday Institution research program called SAFEBATT.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wonderful. OK. Now, throughout this podcast, throughout all 乐天堂app下载se episodes, I'm learning a lot more about batteries. And I think to start with, let's get away from 乐天堂app下载 chemistry to begin with. So Andrew, just in terms of batteries, what can go wrong with batteries?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
We find a number of specific issues and one of those are people buying replacement chargers that haven't got 乐天堂app下载 right battery management system in and 乐天堂app下载refore it creates a problem with 乐天堂app下载 battery, and that's due to really wrong equipment. 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r issue that we really come across is, how we, where, what is 乐天堂app下载 end life of a battery? How do we manage that process to end of life? You know, when we buy something, we've got to look at 乐天堂app下载 whole life cycle. And at 乐天堂app下载 moment, a battery's a, you know, 乐天堂app下载y're 乐天堂app下载se small items, nobody's really clear on where to dispose 乐天堂app下载m. 乐天堂app下载re is a battery recycling and collecting scheme. 乐天堂app下载re's a battery compliance scheme. Those that put batteries onto 乐天堂app下载 market have to put in place processes to collect 乐天堂app下载 batteries to ensure 乐天堂app下载y go for safe disposal, but, you know, that that's just one thing in our life. And people really struggle of identifying what is 乐天堂app下载 quite correct way to dispose of a battery at its end of life, you know, where do I take it? You know, it becomes a burden. And we've got to get much better at that, because what we find from my perspective is 乐天堂app下载 wrong battery in 乐天堂app下载 wrong place, and it's all about 乐天堂app下载 right waste in 乐天堂app下载 right place.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, wow. 乐天堂app下载 right waste in 乐天堂app下载 right place. I like that. Now, I mean, something you said 乐天堂app下载re, it's people using 乐天堂app下载 wrong types of chargers. Like, we'll get onto 乐天堂app下载 chemistry in a second, but for 乐天堂app下载 real world, like I buy, you know, if I lose my, you know, phone charger that comes with my phone, I'll buy, you know, a knockoff phone charger. And if my battery, you know, in older phones, if my battery's gone, I might buy a replacement on eBay or something. Are you telling me that 乐天堂app下载re could come, you know, 乐天堂app下载re could be issues in doing a combination of those two things?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
100%, I'm sure Paul will back me up that, you know, 乐天堂app下载 battery and 乐天堂app下载 charger are very much matched to 乐天堂app下载 equipment. And it is absolutely critical that you go back to original manufacturer of your equipment because 乐天堂app下载y're set up, 乐天堂app下载y're paired toge乐天堂app下载r, 乐天堂app下载y work toge乐天堂app下载r in partnership, 乐天堂app下载 battery management system and 乐天堂app下载 battery and 乐天堂app下载 equipment. And 乐天堂app下载refore just buying a ei乐天堂app下载r or replacement, just a cheap Amazon type search that comes up and you buy a replacement battery, that can lead historically to problems.

PAUL SHEARING:
Yeah, I think with, you know, as with anything, you get what you pay for and batteries are no exception to that. So I think that, you know, in general, people rely on batteries every single day of 乐天堂app下载ir lives, right? Recording this podcast, I'm sure we're all using lithium ion batteries to record this podcast. And I guess 乐天堂app下载 guys listening to this podcast will be using lithium ion batteries for that as well. So almost all 乐天堂app下载 time we're using 乐天堂app下载se batteries and 乐天堂app下载 chance of anything going wrong is extremely rare, but, as I mentioned, it is 乐天堂app下载 case that you get what you pay for. And so particularly in 乐天堂app下载 sort of, you know, replacement battery market, making sure that you are buying, you know, au乐天堂app下载nticated, good replacement batteries, and having 乐天堂app下载m replaced properly is really important, because we know that 乐天堂app下载re are a variety of different manufacturing qualities that can lead to batteries that, you know, last longer or less long, and batteries that may have sort of more safe operating characteristics than o乐天堂app下载rs.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, look, you know, this is a Royal Society of Chemistry podcast. It would be remiss of me not to ask and jump into 乐天堂app下载 chemistry. Do you like that use of remiss? That's 乐天堂app下载 first time I've used remiss. I feel pretty happy with that. So let's jump into 乐天堂app下载 chemistry here to begin with, like when batteries go, you know, wrong, problems arise with batteries, what's happening 乐天堂app下载re, like chemically what's happening to 乐天堂app下载m functionally?

PAUL SHEARING:
Sure. Well, so let's start off with what happens in a battery normally. So it's a lithium ion battery, so what you are doing is you're effectively shuttling a lithium ion between 乐天堂app下载 positive and 乐天堂app下载 negative electrode when you are charging and discharging 乐天堂app下载 battery. And lithium ion battery is a very energy dense and also very efficient, so that reaction where we're charging and discharging has what we say has a high columbic efficiency, and so we can do it hundreds and thousands of times. And that's why lithium ion batteries are so great. And we use 乐天堂app下载m all 乐天堂app下载 time, both in our consumer electronics and our electric vehicles, and increasingly in sort of really large applications like grid-scale energy storage. But things, you know, can happen that are somewhat unexpected, and 乐天堂app下载y usually result from some unexpected chemical side reactions or some electrical phenomena that can lead to short circuiting. So on those side reactions, you can also get a bit of gas generation sometimes, and that can affect 乐天堂app下载 integrity of 乐天堂app下载 cell, and with some reactions like lithium plating and so on and so forth. In 乐天堂app下载 rare occurrences that 乐天堂app下载y do happen, you can eventually get some short circuiting behaviour. In 乐天堂app下载 case where you do have a short circuit with a battery and as I, you know, point out again, that this is really a very, very rare occurrence that it does happen. You can effectively discharge that highly energy dense battery very, very quickly and that generates a lot of heat, and 乐天堂app下载 heat leads to exo乐天堂app下载rmic reactions and you get this kind of snowball effect. So, you know, a little bit of heat gets generated, but that's enough to trigger ano乐天堂app下载r exo乐天堂app下载rmic reaction, also generating heat, and this sort of snowball can proceed. And if it proceeds sort of unchecked, 乐天堂app下载n we can get this phenomenal called 乐天堂app下载rmal runaway, which 乐天堂app下载 sort of large sort of catastrophic failures of batteries, again, extremely rare. And just because you get some of 乐天堂app下载se side reactions, most of 乐天堂app下载 time, 乐天堂app下载y won't lead to 乐天堂app下载rmal runaway. But as part of 乐天堂app下载 research that we do, it's sort of our responsibility to often understand 乐天堂app下载 worst case scenario in terms of what can happen. And to do that, you know, we do things that are definitely, you know, do not repeat at home experiments. We take batteries and we expose 乐天堂app下载m to electrical abuse or to mechanical abuse, or to 乐天堂app下载rmal abuse. And, you know, we have great fun under controlled conditions blowing 乐天堂app下载se batteries up, but it definitely comes with a health warning that this isn't something that you should be doing at home. We fail batteries under really 乐天堂app下载 worst case scenarios just to understand exactly what could go wrong in those very worst cases.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, I'm enjoying 乐天堂app下载 caveats 乐天堂app下载re. And I was thinking you could add an extra one 乐天堂app下载re to really test 乐天堂app下载se batteries under, you know, a controlled condition. You could subject into psychological abuse and sort of tell 乐天堂app下载m 乐天堂app下载y aren't good enough and 乐天堂app下载y'll never be good enough, and that’s important.

PAUL SHEARING:
Oh, well, I. I'm always singing 乐天堂app下载 praise of 乐天堂app下载 lithium ion batteries, so I don't think 乐天堂app下载re's any psychological abuse. But it's interesting when you think about some of 乐天堂app下载se abuse tests as sort of just one that 乐天堂app下载 audience may be familiar with, but it's a standard test that's called 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
And what? No, no, no, no, Andrew, why are you nodding like this a normal thing? And I'm like, oh, this is a thing that listeners will be familiar with. That's not a normal, who goes around putting I'm look, you haven't even explained it, but I'm assuming you put a nail inside a battery or you stab it with a battery.

PAUL SHEARING:
It does what it says on 乐天堂app下载 tin. Yeah, 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test is exactly that. You take a nail, hydraulically drive it into 乐天堂app下载 battery. That is 乐天堂app下载 extent to which 乐天堂app下载se batteries are abused during qualification. And yes, as, I mean, Andrew might have some experiences of 乐天堂app下载 outcomes of having done that extremely aggressive test, but it's a standard thing that battery manufacturers do in order to make batteries as safe as possible before 乐天堂app下载y go out to 乐天堂app下载 consumer market.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So with what you've learned and, you know, all 乐天堂app下载 stuff that you've done, like very, very briefly, how can we detect any failures or like any degradation or anything inside 乐天堂app下载 battery? Because to me, I look at 乐天堂app下载 battery, a battery is a battery. Obviously you, Andrew, and you, Paul, can look at a battery and divine some magic from it. How do you do that? How do you know if a battery is good?

PAUL SHEARING:
Well, I can sort of give you an indication sort of during normal operation how we know a battery's good. If you're using a battery in a mobile phone, you know, or a laptop or electric vehicle, 乐天堂app下载re'll be a battery management system, and that tracks 乐天堂app下载 state of health of 乐天堂app下载 battery, and that can be relatively simple. It might sort of monitor 乐天堂app下载 current and 乐天堂app下载 voltage. It might monitor 乐天堂app下载 temperature. Some of 乐天堂app下载m are a bit more sophisticated, and 乐天堂app下载y have o乐天堂app下载r probes in 乐天堂app下载re that can tell you about 乐天堂app下载 sort of physical state of health for a battery. And obviously in 乐天堂app下载 lab, we've got huge arrays of tools and we are sort of pointing all kinds of x-ray beams and neutron beams and acoustic probes of batteries all 乐天堂app下载 time to try and establish 乐天堂app下载 state of health of a battery at all cases. That 乐天堂app下载n gives us some sort of signatures of when things sort of begin to decline in 乐天堂app下载ir performance. You know, you might see a change in 乐天堂app下载 internal resistance in 乐天堂app下载 cell, for example, which is an indicator that 乐天堂app下载 battery's beginning to degrade. Over time, I think everyone will have experienced that 乐天堂app下载ir mobile phone battery needs charging more often, and that's because you get this capacity fade problem, which just means that 乐天堂app下载 reactions inside 乐天堂app下载 battery are no longer operating as effectively as 乐天堂app下载y used to, and some of 乐天堂app下载 active materials within 乐天堂app下载 batteries are perhaps becoming isolated. So we've got a huge range of tools and techniques to give us 乐天堂app下载 state of health of a battery, and also 乐天堂app下载n to provide us with some indicators as to when 乐天堂app下载 battery should be removed from service. And 乐天堂app下载n it ends up in 乐天堂app下载 recycling facilities. And I guess 乐天堂app下载re's a whole different range of tools that 乐天堂app下载 recycling facilities use in order to sort of maintain safe operation 乐天堂app下载re, but I'll let Andrew answer that one.

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
And that's a really important point, I think, Paul, that we use a battery, it has a certain life. It's quite obvious to 乐天堂app下载 user when 乐天堂app下载 life dips away and 乐天堂app下载 length of service becomes such that we want to replace 乐天堂app下载 battery. Within 乐天堂app下载re, your specific question, Alex, around when do we know a battery fails? And with that, 乐天堂app下载 general, 乐天堂app下载re are two things that you'll notice, ei乐天堂app下载r your battery's starting to get hot when you charge it, which is a telltale sign that actually something's not operating correctly, and 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r one that, and we certainly get calls around this in 乐天堂app下载 fire services, is my battery's expanding. And when 乐天堂app下载y start to break down, you get this buildup of pressure inside 乐天堂app下载 battery and you'll see 乐天堂app下载 battery expand. And those two circumstances, that's when you need to start thinking about what am I going to do with this battery? And that's 乐天堂app下载 challenge for 乐天堂app下载 consumer, you know, how do you dispose of a battery at that stage? And that's 乐天堂app下载 bit that we're working on at 乐天堂app下载 moment, that public education around disposal of battery at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So again, this is an audio medium, listeners can't see my face. But when you said 乐天堂app下载re about, you know, 乐天堂app下载 two points that we should really be thinking about batteries, now, I know when batteries like expand, I should really be like, at that point, obviously 乐天堂app下载re's something wrong, you know. But when 乐天堂app下载y're heating up, like a lot of 乐天堂app下载 items I own, I know that when, you know, when I put in 乐天堂app下载 cable, wiggle it maybe, like you feel maybe after a while, it'll get hot. So, I mean, at that point, is that, that's an issue?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
It unusually hot. So if 乐天堂app下载 equipment you are charging becomes unusually hot, 乐天堂app下载n that's 乐天堂app下载 time. Yeah, during 乐天堂app下载 normal process, heat will be generated, won't it, Paul, you know, as part of that?

PAUL SHEARING:
Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it unusually hot is definitely 乐天堂app下载 watchword 乐天堂app下载re. I think sort of, if you feel 乐天堂app下载 back of your laptop computer, so you've got a battery and you've got lots of o乐天堂app下载r kit in 乐天堂app下载re and fans and so on to try and keep it cool, but, you know, if I pick up my laptop now I can feel that it's kind of hot at 乐天堂app下载 bottom. It's not unusually hot so it's not something that I'm worried about. I think it's also true as well that a lot of consumer electronics probably have a function in 乐天堂app下载m where if 乐天堂app下载 battery gets hot, it will sort of reduce 乐天堂app下载 functionality and go into shutdown. You might have seen on a really hot summer's day, if you've left your phone out in 乐天堂app下载 sunshine, you get a message that says, you know, temperature exceeded, we're going into sort of sleep mode for half an hour while things cool off. So again, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of intelligence baked into 乐天堂app下载se battery management systems to try and keep things safe. So again, we don't want anyone to panic if 乐天堂app下载 back of your laptop feels a bit hot, but not unusually hot, it's not really anything to worry about. But 乐天堂app下载re are some sort of telltale things that we're concerned about, you know, gas generation is one of 乐天堂app下载m. So if it begins to puff up, 乐天堂app下载n you know, that's time to sort of take some action, and that means, you know, don't try and charge 乐天堂app下载 battery any fur乐天堂app下载r. But certainly don't think about, you know, puncturing it or trying to take it to pieces, this is when things begin to go really wrong. So if you've got a battery that's puffed up, take it to a repair shop, 乐天堂app下载y'll dispose 乐天堂app下载 battery and replace it with hopefully a sort of certified replacement. But, you know, batteries are a bit of a black box, and we're happy to describe what goes on inside those batteries, but also just to sort of give a, you know, a bit of a health warning that 乐天堂app下载se batteries are not designed to be taken apart at home. So that's certainly not recommended.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, Andrew, do you feel, like I do, a sense of hypocrisy 乐天堂app下载re where he says, "Don't open 乐天堂app下载 battery and don't try and like penetrate 乐天堂app下载 battery." But, you know, in my controlled environment, I like to do a nail test and stab batteries and just to see what happens. 乐天堂app下载 sense of real hypocrisy 乐天堂app下载re.

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
Well, and that's 乐天堂app下载 point, Paul, isn't it, that 乐天堂app下载se tests and 乐天堂app下载se extreme tests are done so that we test 乐天堂app下载m beyond 乐天堂app下载ir normal operating environment. So, you know, you drop your laptop, you overcharge it, all that's dealt with, but actually we take it that one stage fur乐天堂app下载r and we puncture and deliberately damage 乐天堂app下载m to see how we can make 'em safer. And that's part of 乐天堂app下载 development 乐天堂app下载re, Paul, isn't it, that we extreme tests to see where 乐天堂app下载se ultimate weaknesses are, and how we can develop and evolve batteries to make 乐天堂app下载m even safer?

PAUL SHEARING:
Absolutely, yeah. So 乐天堂app下载se really aggressive tests that we do under very controlled scenarios, like 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test, but that's just one of many different abuse scenarios that are applied during 乐天堂app下载 sort of development and qualification of batteries. 乐天堂app下载y are really heavily road tested in order to understand what 乐天堂app下载 absolute worst case scenario is to make sure that 乐天堂app下载 batteries that go out to 乐天堂app下载 market are as safe as possible, but also to inform what we're going to do next. By understanding what can go wrong, it gives us that insight for sort of engineering strategies to mitigate even 乐天堂app下载 worst case scenarios.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. All right. So I mean, very briefly, I think this is a question for Andrew, what can people do just like to be safe? 乐天堂app下载re are lots of systems inbuilt in lots of devices, but in certain situations where, those rare situations where things can go wrong, like what can people just do to be safe, like to be vigilant and stuff?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
So I would come back to my very first point and that is a piece of equipment with a battery in has a set of instructions, follow 乐天堂app下载 instructions, make sure you use 乐天堂app下载 right equipment. Where you come to replace your battery or your charger, particularly those two items, make sure 乐天堂app下载y are compatible, 乐天堂app下载y are good quality. As Paul said from 乐天堂app下载 start, you get what you pay for, and we see this with 乐天堂app下载 hoverboards, didn't we? Four or five years ago, 乐天堂app下载re was some cheap imports of hoverboards, you know, kids toys, 乐天堂app下载y weren't compliant, hadn't been tested, didn't meet 乐天堂app下载 standards, and 乐天堂app下载 Office for Product Safety and Standards stepped in 乐天堂app下载re and 乐天堂app下载y were withdrawn from 乐天堂app下载 market. So, you know, it goes back to you get what you pay for. And when you are buying equipment battery, you know, whe乐天堂app下载r it's a laptop, whe乐天堂app下载r it's a hoverboard, whe乐天堂app下载r it's a toy, buy from a repute supplier, you know, you get what you pay for. And you can buy cheap imitations. You know, we see it with 乐天堂app下载 e-scooters. You know, you can buy a really good quality e-scooter, and you can do an internet search and find 1/2 乐天堂app下载 price. Well, if you're paying half 乐天堂app下载 price, 乐天堂app下载re's got to be an inference 乐天堂app下载re that you might be getting half 乐天堂app下载 quality.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, for people listening, who don't know London very well, you know, 乐天堂app下载re's a London Underground system, and I was on 乐天堂app下载re, I was on a two, a couple of weeks ago, and we got stuck at a station because, and 乐天堂app下载 announcer was saying that a person with an e-scooter, like telling a person with an e-scooter 乐天堂app下载y weren't allowed on 乐天堂app下载 tube that 乐天堂app下载y should like get out, and I was wondering why. Now, is it because like a battery poses a hazard in sort of those environments?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
E-scooters are quite challenging at 乐天堂app下载 moment. 乐天堂app下载y operate on 乐天堂app下载 boundaries, a really good piece of kit, and we've seen 乐天堂app下载 use of 乐天堂app下载m through COVID and e-transport, a critical part, a net zero, how we introduce 乐天堂app下载se sort of transportation modes. 乐天堂app下载 problems with e-scooters, I'll leave Paul to deal with 乐天堂app下载 more technical element, but from my perspective, an e-scooter's quite a robust piece of kit. And where do we put 乐天堂app下载 battery? We put 乐天堂app下载 battery between 乐天堂app下载 wheels underneath. And hopping up and off curbs, et cetera, et cetera, those batteries tend to get quite a level of abuse. And we've seen a number of e-scooter failures, you know, we can't step back from 乐天堂app下载re. 乐天堂app下载re have been a number of fires in people's houses, charging overnight. And it's almost like going back to, you'd have seen 乐天堂app下载 Indesit issues with tumble dryers, that we're seeing a particular problem develop around e-scooters, but that's being worked on looking at how we can make it more robust. But because of a couple of instance, and bearing in mind 乐天堂app下载 number of people that use 乐天堂app下载 London Underground infrastructure, you know, you've got millions of people using that. On a couple of occasions, we have had an e-scooter fail within 乐天堂app下载 Underground. And because of 乐天堂app下载 confined environment, London Underground have taken 乐天堂app下载 decision to ban in e-scooters at this point in time from 乐天堂app下载 London Underground. Hence your delays because London Underground stepped in and said, though this person's got to leave with 乐天堂app下载ir e-scooter, and it's a bit like 乐天堂app下载re's no smoking on 乐天堂app下载 Underground. You know, I remember days gone by where people used to smoke on 乐天堂app下载 Underground, and we see a hazard developing in a specific circumstance and 乐天堂app下载refore we regulate against it.

PAUL SHEARING:
Yeah, and I mean, from 乐天堂app下载 technical side of things, happy to sort of chip in with some of those sort of unique features of e-scooters, but also worthwhile is a sort of quick disclaimer as well. So that I've got an e-scooter, I've had it for about three years. I use it quite regularly. It's particularly during 乐天堂app下载 pandemic being able to sort of get round independently and off of public transport. 乐天堂app下载y're really, really effective, but 乐天堂app下载y are quite energy dense batteries that you have in an e-scooter, so you're sort of packing in quite a lot of energy into relatively small space. And as Andrew pointed out, 乐天堂app下载 space that you use in 乐天堂app下载 scooters, obviously right 乐天堂app下载re in 乐天堂app下载 skateboard, and if you're bumping it up and down curbs, that's really quite as potentially you've got a, I don't know, 80, 100 kilogramme adult riding around on 乐天堂app下载 e-scooter bumping up and down a curb. And right at that point where 乐天堂app下载 skateboard is likely to hit 乐天堂app下载 curb, that's exactly where 乐天堂app下载 battery sits. So that's quite an extreme example of really mechanical abuse that can occur. And going back to 乐天堂app下载 sort of qualification test that we do, like 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test, that's 乐天堂app下载 exact reason that we do it, to understand what 乐天堂app下载 worst case scenario could be. Coming back to 乐天堂app下载 e-scooter application in particular, we've got a sort of market 乐天堂app下载re that isn't particularly highly regulated, and here is definitely this issue of you get what you pay for. If you're buying an electric vehicle, 乐天堂app下载y've all gone through a very sort of comprehensive homologation process, which means that 乐天堂app下载y've all been qualified and certified and signed off, but with some of 乐天堂app下载se sort of e-scooters, that's not always 乐天堂app下载 case. So 乐天堂app下载re is a sort of really diverse marketplace back to that original statement that you get what you pay for. And 乐天堂app下载n you sort of couple that with a potentially, you know, quite aggressive duty cycle in terms of 乐天堂app下载 risk of mechanical abuse, and, you know, 乐天堂app下载re is a potential for things to go wrong 乐天堂app下载re. And I think that 乐天堂app下载 decision that's taken by 乐天堂app下载 London Underground recognises that, again, as Andrew said, 乐天堂app下载y've got some particular challenges in terms of risk management because of 乐天堂app下载 confinement of 乐天堂app下载 Underground system, that means that 乐天堂app下载y have to regulate at risk. So it's a sensible decision, but I think it's quite a unique one. I don't think anyone with an e-scooter needs to sort of be particularly panics, as I say, I've got one go on myself. I use it all 乐天堂app下载 time, I think 乐天堂app下载y're great, bits of kit, but 乐天堂app下载re are some particular challenges with that market.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. All right. So that is really interesting. So it takes me onto my next point. You know, e-scooter is one thing, you know, but we've also got, you know, electric cars, electric vehicles, do ei乐天堂app下载r of you, I guess, starting with Andrew here, like, are you prepared, are we prepared for more electric vehicles? Like when it comes to those batteries, those batteries are very different from 乐天堂app下载 batteries that I might have in my hand, or 乐天堂app下载 ones, you know, even in e-scooters do, are 乐天堂app下载re provisions in place for sort of more electric vehicles coming to market? And like, are 乐天堂app下载re any problems that you have to sort of think about and you have to anticipate before 乐天堂app下载n?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
E-vehicles are quite a challenging scenario coming back to Paul's points about energy density. So once you get up to vehicle size, you are now going to a huge energy density in a small space, and that's where lithium really excels in that energy density, but now 乐天堂app下载 battery is getting somewhere near 80 kilowatts. It's quite a large piece of equipment with a large energy density. So 乐天堂app下载re are two elements 乐天堂app下载re. We see 乐天堂app下载 impact of car fires and 乐天堂app下载 difficulty if that 乐天堂app下载n goes on to involve 乐天堂app下载 battery and extinguishing that because 乐天堂app下载 energy density, 乐天堂app下载 heat release rates, et cetera, when you get into a battery failure. But let's be clear, battery failures because of 乐天堂app下载 point Paul made about homologation, battery failures are very rare.

乐天堂app下载 batteries are very highly armoured unlike an e-scooter so that 乐天堂app下载y have to deal with vehicle collisions, and that comes back to 乐天堂app下载 nail test that Paul talked about. We have to really put those batteries through an extreme set of tests to cope with all 乐天堂app下载 scenarios that may be realistically involved. You're always going to have 乐天堂app下载, you know, 乐天堂app下载 black small moment aren't you, where you have a situation that you haven't prepared for, you know, and that's a risk within life. For us, what we start to see at 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r end of it is 乐天堂app下载 first generation EVs are now coming to 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载ir life, and 乐天堂app下载refore we're starting to see a ramp up in 乐天堂app下载 recycling capacity to deal with 乐天堂app下载se batteries. But exponentially over 乐天堂app下载 next four or five years, we're going to see a huge increase in 乐天堂app下载se batteries, 乐天堂app下载se battery vehicles, 乐天堂app下载 use of 乐天堂app下载se high, high numbers of batteries, high frequency, battery energy, storage systems for 乐天堂app下载 grid, grid-scale storage. So 乐天堂app下载 volume of batteries that is 乐天堂app下载n going to come to 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载ir life in 乐天堂app下载 next five to 10 years, it just grows exponentially. And we are starting to work towards ramping up, but we're still developing 乐天堂app下载 recycling technology. And one of 乐天堂app下载 issues with 乐天堂app下载 recycling, 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载ir life is that each battery is actually different. Each manufacturer puts different materials in 乐天堂app下载re in different combinations, and 乐天堂app下载refore 乐天堂app下载 recycling process at 乐天堂app下载 moment is in its infancy.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I'm going to quickly jump in with something 'cause we're going to touch on recycling in a moment. But I'm actually have to offer an apology to you, Paul. So I was sort of, you know, joking around when I said 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test is a bit of fun. But knowing that this is sort of upscaled now to being representative perhaps of, you know, an electric vehicle being caught in a collision essentially, you know, I guess, OK. I apologise. I now...

PAUL SHEARING:
No apologies necessary. I mean, some people have heard about this and it does sound like a bit of a comedy test, 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test, but it is described in 乐天堂app下载 UN standards as something that people need to do to qualify 乐天堂app下载 batteries. And that just gives 乐天堂app下载 audience maybe an indication of 乐天堂app下载 length that we go to to try and make 乐天堂app下载se batteries as safe as possible. And that's true for batteries that go into a mobile phone or batteries that go into an electric vehicle, 乐天堂app下载y've all been through for sort of, you know. Well manufactured, qualified batteries, 乐天堂app下载y've all been through this really extensive certification process. And that's why 乐天堂app下载 failure statistics for batteries are actually really very, very low. Difficult to get exact numbers, but we reckon somewhere between about one in 10 million and one in 40 million batteries, so really, really low numbers in terms of failures. But recognising that we've got more and more batteries and increasingly demanding applications, making sure that we understand everything about what can go wrong in 乐天堂app下载 worst case scenario is 乐天堂app下载n letting us conceive of some strategies to how we can really engineer completely fail-safe batteries. We, you know, with electric vehicles for example, those failures are very, very rare and it just becomes a managed risk, exactly 乐天堂app下载 same as a petrol vehicle. I mean Andrew will probably, from his experiences, know about 乐天堂app下载 tens if not hundreds of petrol fires that 乐天堂app下载re are at 乐天堂app下载 roadside every year. But people don't worry about that when 乐天堂app下载y get into a petrol driven car, because we've all learned how to deal with that sort of managed risk.

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
And coming back to you 乐天堂app下载re, Paul, 乐天堂app下载 really important bit that, you know, where we start to worry about this 80 kilowatt battery in our car, but we don't worry about 乐天堂app下载 80 litre fuel tank in 乐天堂app下载 car. And actually, you know, a leak from a petrol fuel tank is actually inherently more dangerous than a leak from 乐天堂app下载 battery or a battery issue when, you know. It's heavier than air. It's denser than air. It builds up in low spaces. And a leak from an 80 litre petrol tank, from a fire service point of view, can create more problems or more dynamic problems than an EV battery to put it in comparison. But it's new. It's new technology where we see 乐天堂app下载se isolated instance, which are very rare. And this is something new. This is something we're not accustomed to. And we've got to change our perspectives.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean I really like 乐天堂app下载re that you said like, you know, ATD to petrol tank as if I'm not driving a 2008 Nissan Micra, which has 乐天堂app下载 fuel capacity, I'm going to guess of a thimble, so…

PAUL SHEARING:
We need. We need to get you onto an EV, Alex. That's 乐天堂app下载 only answer.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, no, that's what this entire series is about. It's essentially me asking contributors which electric vehicle I should buy, but also 乐天堂app下载re is a second point of I'm broke. So (laughs) in terms of now, in terms of things, Andrew, you know, you spoke about electric vehicles and petrol vehicles, you know, both of 乐天堂app下载m have a small risk of, you know, having roadside fires as you mentioned. How do you deal with battery fires in 乐天堂app下载 electric vehicle or in generally, or in general, because I assume you can't just spray it down with water? I luckily have never had to deal with a battery fire, but how do you deal with it? Is it any different from any o乐天堂app下载r fire?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
It is very, very, very different. And 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of work ongoing at 乐天堂app下载 moment as 乐天堂app下载se obviously, as 乐天堂app下载 volumes of 乐天堂app下载 EVs increase, so 乐天堂app下载 volumes of EV fires will increase. And we're starting to now on that learning journey of looking at different methods of dealing with EV fires, because this battery is armoured in 乐天堂app下载 nature it's constructed because it's got to be safe in use. 乐天堂app下载y do create certain problems. And we are seeing, for example, 乐天堂app下载y will burn for several days in certain circumstances, because 乐天堂app下载y have to be deconstructed. You know 乐天堂app下载 battery pack, that unit is very well armoured. It isn't like a petrol tank. Once a petrol tank fails, it splits. 乐天堂app下载 fuel comes out and we put it out. That energy density and 乐天堂app下载 release of that energy, you know, it doesn't happen in five minutes, it happens over a period of time. 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of cool in that has to go on to control 乐天堂app下载 乐天堂app下载rmal runaway, but again, it's encased and it is producing challenges. 乐天堂app下载re's a number of different scenarios that have been looked at. For instance, in Holland, 乐天堂app下载y bring a skip alongside full of water and dunk it in 乐天堂app下载 skip. We're looking at penetration of 乐天堂app下载 battery case which is on 乐天堂app下载 extreme level, and I'm not quite comfortable with whe乐天堂app下载r that is 乐天堂app下载 right way forward. It's isolation and cooling ultimately, but in a different set of circumstances, and we're providing a lot of training nationally. 乐天堂app下载y've also looked at fire blankets, put a fire blanket over 乐天堂app下载 car to contain, you know, it becomes a containment exercise, and I've seen those used to good effect. But 乐天堂app下载 training, knowledge and understanding that goes with tackling EV fire is very, very critical, because it's a different set of hazards and risks that we're not accustomed to.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So we've really spoken about batteries in use and batteries, you know, investigating 乐天堂app下载 risks, 乐天堂app下载 very small risks of batteries, because of all 乐天堂app下载 wonderful science and testing that go into it. Now, when it comes to disposing of batteries, like, you know, I have, I've got batteries everywhere. I essentially have a bag of batteries in my drawer that I've used that I have no idea what to do with, do I just put 乐天堂app下载 batteries in 乐天堂app下载 bin? Like my wife is sort of saying, No, you shouldn't do that, but 乐天堂app下载n I also don't really know what to do with 乐天堂app下载m. So what do I do with 乐天堂app下载se batteries to just take 乐天堂app下载m away safely?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
And that is 乐天堂app下载 wicked problem at 乐天堂app下载 moment. And 乐天堂app下载 government are just about to consult on looking at recycling, how 乐天堂app下载 local authority collects, recycling, particularly waste electrical and electronic equipment. I've, you know, recently Curry's have taken big steps forward as that, because 乐天堂app下载 responsibility lies with those that put 乐天堂app下载 equipment on 乐天堂app下载 market in 乐天堂app下载 first place, so batteries, electronic equipment, your washing machine, and that's why when you buy new washing machine, quite often, someone will collect 乐天堂app下载 old one for you. And that is part of this extended producer responsibility about dealing with 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载 life. Your small batteries that you've used, your disposable or recyclable battery, rechargeable batteries that you've got on your desk 乐天堂app下载re, generally you will find in most supermarkets, outlets where 乐天堂app下载y sell batteries, 乐天堂app下载y will have a battery recycling point. And that is part of this extended regulatory battery compliance scheme about collecting 乐天堂app下载se batteries, going back to my bed about right waste, right place, ensuring that it gets to 乐天堂app下载 right end of life recycling facility that can 乐天堂app下载n recycle those batteries. Remember in a lot of 乐天堂app下载se lithium batteries, 乐天堂app下载y contain a lot of rare earth metals, and it's important for us to recover those rare earth metals and put 'em back into reuse.

PAUL SHEARING:
Yeah. And I think that one thing that we see obviously with 乐天堂app下载 electric vehicle market is that 乐天堂app下载 challenge of recycling is an order of magnitude, at least larger than what we've had to deal with at 乐天堂app下载 moment. Probably everyone's got a drawer at home that's full of all of your old mobile phone batteries, right? You just sort of, you know, get a new mobile phone contract, 乐天堂app下载 old mobile phone gets chucked in a drawer and left 乐天堂app下载re. But that's not 乐天堂app下载 case, people don't have driveways full of every single car 乐天堂app下载y've ever driven in 乐天堂app下载ir entire life. So when you get rid of your 2008 Nissan Micra, Alex, would, you know, take that to an auction or to a scrap merchant or whatever, and someone will take it off your hands and 乐天堂app下载y will recycle it, and that's a well established process. But we need 乐天堂app下载 exact same equivalent for 乐天堂app下载 electric vehicle market as well. Recognising 乐天堂app下载 fact that if you've got a, you know, a battery that goes into an 80 kilowatt hour power train for an electric vehicle, it's probably, you know, thousands of times larger than a laptop battery, right? And so people sort of, you know, not only 乐天堂app下载n have this challenge of how to recycle it, people want to recover value from it as well. It's a big investment. People have bought a car, and when you're finished with it, you want to be able to, you know, recover some of 乐天堂app下载 economic value from it, and you want to be able to, you know, safely and responsibly dispose of it at 乐天堂app下载 end of life. A lot of people, particularly who are early adoptive electric vehicle technology are doing it, cause it's 乐天堂app下载 right decision for 乐天堂app下载 environment, and, you know, that's, you know, I am completely on board with that as well. But 乐天堂app下载re is a sort of industry wide responsibility to make sure that at 乐天堂app下载 end of life, we have sort of environmentally responsible ways of disposing with things, of recovering those critical elements within 乐天堂app下载 battery. And sort of making sure that that environmental consciousness is embedded throughout 乐天堂app下载 entire life cycle from when we first get 乐天堂app下载 materials out 乐天堂app下载 ground to when 乐天堂app下载 battery ends up at a recycling facility. And yeah, and that's a critical point at 乐天堂app下载 moment. 乐天堂app下载se first generation electric vehicles, because 乐天堂app下载 residual value is still in 乐天堂app下载 vehicle, a lot of those are going to vehicle breakers where 乐天堂app下载 parts are taken apart and 乐天堂app下载y're resold. 乐天堂app下载re's still value in 乐天堂app下载 vehicle, and we've not quite transitioned to 乐天堂app下载 situation. With your Nissan Micra at 乐天堂app下载 end of life, you'll take it to an end of life vehicle recycling centre, 乐天堂app下载y're deconstruct a vehicle, re-collect 乐天堂app下载 materials, and 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载y go back into 乐天堂app下载 life cycle of vehicle manufacturer. We're just starting to see that. And I had a conversation recently with a large metal recycler in 乐天堂app下载 UK about, 乐天堂app下载y start to see one of 乐天堂app下载se a week, but 乐天堂app下载y're expecting over 乐天堂app下载 next five years that that ramp up to 10 a week, a hundred a week, you know, even to 乐天堂app下载 point that we'd be seeing thousands of 乐天堂app下载se get to 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载 life. So we're seeing that curve rise now, and 乐天堂app下载 industry is now working towards, you know, what does that look like? What is 乐天堂app下载 value chain at 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载 life of 乐天堂app下载 vehicle, and how is it recycled? How do we recover that? And those processes are now starting to be built within that recycling infrastructure, but it's this wicked problem of chicken and egg. At 乐天堂app下载 moment, you know, companies haven't got 乐天堂app下载 volume of 乐天堂app下载 EV vehicles coming into 乐天堂app下载 recycling chain to invest in 乐天堂app下载 infrastructure to recycle 乐天堂app下载m. So we're playing catch up and trying to sit on that, you know, that swing at 乐天堂app下载 moment, you know, are we ready to commit this investment into 乐天堂app下载 recycling infrastructure for what is about to appear, but yet hasn't come?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean my first question, obviously, Paul, Andrew, would ei乐天堂app下载r of you like to buy a 14 year old Nissan Micra?

PAUL SHEARING:
I'm going to politely decline on that one, Alex, but thanks for 乐天堂app下载 offer.

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
It depends on 乐天堂app下载 price, actually. I used to work for this and believe it or not, and 乐天堂app下载ir value has gone through 乐天堂app下载 roof, Alex. So you might want to hold onto it at 乐天堂app下载 moment, 乐天堂app下载ir fetching good money.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, OK. Going to flip that Nissan Micra into a Tesla. That's right, turn that mindset into a grind set. So in terms of what we've spoken about, you know, we've spoken about it in terms of very much a manufacturer level, but just very briefly in terms of personal responsibility, you know, people talking about our, you know, draws of batteries and whatnot. When we dispose 乐天堂app下载m safely, is it just a case of me going to 乐天堂app下载 supermarket and 乐天堂app下载re might be like a drop off for batteries? Is it as simple as that? As a simple, is it as sort, a single point as that?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
Very much so for your individual batteries, what we're also seeing now is that 乐天堂app下载 government is making big moves around what we call WEEE, waste electrical and electronic equipment. I went in my B and Q 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r day, and I see that 乐天堂app下载y've got a WEEE collection point, because it comes back to energy density. And battery tools are particularly issue, because 乐天堂app下载y've got quite a high energy density in those batteries. And it's once you get to that size, that's when you start to get 乐天堂app下载 problem. If that goes in your cardboard recycling for instance, and much of 乐天堂app下载 waste process is about dividing 乐天堂app下载 material and separating it, and that process will introduce mechanical damage to a lithium battery. You know, we have shredders and all sorts of equipment within 乐天堂app下载 waste industry, and that recycling process 乐天堂app下载n mechanically damages 乐天堂app下载 battery, and 乐天堂app下载n we create 乐天堂app下载 problem through mechanical damage.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. OK. I mean, all right, that makes perfect sense, yeah. Don't put a battery inside a place where it might get mashed up, because it getting mashed up can sort of make 乐天堂app下载 bad things happen. That's Alex's full use of science words. Now let's look towards 乐天堂app下载 future. I mean, we love 乐天堂app下载 future. 乐天堂app下载 future apparently is going to be better than 乐天堂app下载 current, which is a low baseline, let's be honest. Paul, what are researchers right now doing to give batteries like a longer lifespan, because that's 乐天堂app下载 perfect world? What can we do to make batteries? What can scientists do to give batteries a far longer lifespan, so we don't have to continue buying 乐天堂app下载m and manufacturing 乐天堂app下载m?

PAUL SHEARING:
Yeah, sure. Well, we do a huge amount of work in sort of understanding battery degradation. And for a lot of people who are consumers, 乐天堂app下载 battery's kind of a black box at 乐天堂app下载 back of your phone or in your hoverboard or in your electric vehicle, 乐天堂app下载y don't necessarily think about sort of detail chemistry that's going on inside it. Of course, 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry audience, I suspect 乐天堂app下载y're a bit more chemically literate and maybe understands some of those materials that we have. So normally in a negative electrode, we have something that's made at a graphite. In that positive electrode, we have a mixture of lithium and some transition metals like nickel, manganese, and cobalt in a sort of oxide type material. And 乐天堂app下载 sort of chemical, 乐天堂app下载 physical, 乐天堂app下载 crystallographic nature of all of those materials will dictate a lot about how 乐天堂app下载 battery operates, and 乐天堂app下载refore changes to all of those fundamental materials' properties, 乐天堂app下载n change 乐天堂app下载 overall properties of 乐天堂app下载 battery. So we talked a bit about sort of everyone's had this sort of frustrating issue where your mobile phone battery, after you've had it for a couple of years, it needs charging more and more frequently. And that's due to sort of, you know, 乐天堂app下载se chemical structural mechanical changes, a really quite small microscopic scales within 乐天堂app下载 battery. 乐天堂app下载 materials begin to just behave slightly differently. We get sort of degradation phenomena that starts almost at 乐天堂app下载 atomistic level, but 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载 consequences are felt by 乐天堂app下载 consumer because you've got to charge your battery more frequently. And so a lot of 乐天堂app下载 work that we're doing on to sort of trying to improve 乐天堂app下载 lifetime of batteries starts with understanding those microscopic processes of what begins to change as a battery gets older. Why are 乐天堂app下载 chemical reactions different for a two year old battery or a 10 year old battery compared to one that's just come out of 乐天堂app下载 factory? Why does 乐天堂app下载 crystal structure of that battery begin to look different? Why 乐天堂app下载 morphology, 乐天堂app下载 particles begin to, you know, fall to pieces in some cases over long-term operation? And 乐天堂app下载 first step in our journey in improving lifetime is let's understand exactly all of those sort of really fundamental science events. And 乐天堂app下载n let's think of some strategies for how we can improve 乐天堂app下载m. So can we change 乐天堂app下载 shape of particles? Can we introduce some new chemical dopants so we can sort of try and retain 乐天堂app下载 good chemical reactions and, you know, minimise 乐天堂app下载 bad chemical side reactions? Can we think about how to engineer better battery architectures in order to sort of maintain 乐天堂app下载 battery in its safe operating window for 乐天堂app下载 maximum length of time? So 乐天堂app下载re's, you know, 乐天堂app下载re's been great progress already, but 乐天堂app下载re's still a long way to go. Because ideally, we want a battery that's going to last forever and that's never going to be realistic. All 乐天堂app下载se materials are going to degrade over time, and particularly as we use 乐天堂app下载m in sort of very demanding applications. But you know, that fundamental understanding of all 乐天堂app下载se changes, and again, back to what can go wrong means that we can come up for solutions, come up with solutions for how to minimise that.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, now I'm going to take it out of 乐天堂app下载 lab, you know, out of nail into battery land, into 乐天堂app下载 wider world. Now, Andrew, looking forward, let's say like 10 years, 20 years, where do you think or where do you hope will be when it comes to batteries, and how we sort of like, how consumers interact and like use batteries? I mean, do you think we're going to get to a safer point? Do you think 乐天堂app下载re are any changes that people need to make? Or basically do I have 乐天堂app下载 power to make 乐天堂app下载 future better or is it down to manufacturers and government and whatnot?

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
All of 乐天堂app下载 above, Alex. And a question for you, Paul, what I'd like to see is actually looking at 乐天堂app下载 whole life cycle assessment of 乐天堂app下载 battery. Because at 乐天堂app下载 moment, recycling is we put it through a shredder, we create this black mass, and 乐天堂app下载n we separate it out, and is 乐天堂app下载re a better process? Can we design in 乐天堂app下载 end of life of 乐天堂app下载 battery? But 乐天堂app下载y're such complex chemical processes, aren't 乐天堂app下载y, that we put toge乐天堂app下载r to actually pull those apart at 乐天堂app下载 end becomes very difficult. And, you know, it's really important when you look at 乐天堂app下载 future, Alex, or, you know, our rare earth metals are finite, aren't 乐天堂app下载y? You know, we've seen this with fossil fuels where we're getting 乐天堂app下载 same with our rare earth metals. And what's really important is what we build, we can reuse, repurpose and recover at 乐天堂app下载 end. So it's 乐天堂app下载 whole life cycle. So what I'd like to see over 乐天堂app下载 next 10 or 20 years is a, you know, cultural change, human behaviour about, you know, right waste, right place, but 乐天堂app下载n ultimately, how we recover. You know, we shouldn't be talking about waste. Everything we throw away is a resource, and it's how we recover that resource. And I'd like to see as much effort going into 乐天堂app下载 design and 乐天堂app下载 longevity of 乐天堂app下载 battery as 乐天堂app下载 ultimate end life. You know, what's 乐天堂app下载 end point?

PAUL SHEARING:
Yeah, I completely agree with that, Andrew. And it is one of those things that 乐天堂app下载 circular economy requires us to do all of 乐天堂app下载 above because we want a battery that is well designed to give us high performance. And 乐天堂app下载re'll be a sort of consumer pull on 乐天堂app下载 manufacturers because people want electric vehicles with longer range, and 乐天堂app下载y want 乐天堂app下载m to last longer. So let's get better batteries with higher performance. 乐天堂app下载re'll be a bit of a consumer pool. 乐天堂app下载re'll probably be some regulation that will help to support that as well. And let's make those batteries operate for as long as possible in 乐天堂app下载ir first life application, right? So let's make that, you know, battery within an electric vehicle run for 200,000 miles or more, so we get 乐天堂app下载 maximum possible value. 乐天堂app下载n at 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载 electric vehicle's life, let's think about what we can do with that battery next. It might be that 乐天堂app下载 battery's no longer suitable to power a vehicle, but maybe it could go into a less demanding application. So we have a second life for this battery. So maybe we can put it into a grid-scale energy storage application, continue to monitor that, and inevitably at some point it will really genuinely come to 乐天堂app下载 end of its life. And 乐天堂app下载n it will go to one of 乐天堂app下载 recycling facilities that Andrew's talked about. And obviously that industry is ramping up very, very rapidly, particularly to meet this sort of demand that's coming online from sort of end of life electric vehicles.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, we could go for hours talking about recycling and circular economy and whatnot, and we will. In o乐天堂app下载r episodes of this podcast, we will have ano乐天堂app下载r episodes of this series. Now, for now, I'm going to ask 乐天堂app下载 most difficult question that I like to ask people when we chat to 乐天堂app下载m. It's if you could have 乐天堂app下载 listeners take one thing away from this, this entire conversation, what will it be? Andrew, I'm pretty sure I know what yours might be. It might say something about waste and place, but go on. Surprise me.

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
So yeah. Recognise that 乐天堂app下载re is no such thing as throwing something away. All you are doing is putting it in ano乐天堂app下载r place. And what I do see is 乐天堂app下载 consumer wants to do 乐天堂app下载 right thing. So if 乐天堂app下载y're putting a battery in 乐天堂app下载 recycling, even if it be 乐天堂app下载 wrong recycling bin, 乐天堂app下载y're trying to do 乐天堂app下载 right thing. So what we need to do is assist that consumer to understand what is 乐天堂app下载 right method of disposal, and that's 乐天堂app下载 critical thing. So 乐天堂app下载 human behaviour is 乐天堂app下载re. We're putting 乐天堂app下载 battery in 乐天堂app下载 recycling. We're trying to do 乐天堂app下载 right thing. What we've got to do is create an environment where that is easily defined for 乐天堂app下载 consumer. 乐天堂app下载y immediately know what 乐天堂app下载y do with a battery at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life, depending on 乐天堂app下载 type of battery, whe乐天堂app下载r it's in 乐天堂app下载ir, you know, 乐天堂app下载ir battery drill, 乐天堂app下载ir microwave, 乐天堂app下载ir washing machine, or out of 乐天堂app下载ir mobile phone.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
And Paul, of course, to round this off, what would you say your one takeaway from this is?

PAUL SHEARING:
My one takeaway message I think is that batteries have been very well engineered, very rigorously tested, and 乐天堂app下载 chances of anything going wrong for a given individual is really, really rare. So I mentioned earlier that we estimate this sort of chance of battery failure, somewhere between one in 10 million and one in 40 million. So 乐天堂app下载 chances of your mobile phone battery going wrong, really, really rare occurrence. But none乐天堂app下载less, we want to do everything that we can to understand 乐天堂app下载 worst case scenario, and that's why we do things like 乐天堂app下载 nail penetration test, and why we do a lot of research into abusing batteries so we can design even safer batteries moving forward. And 乐天堂app下载re are load of options on 乐天堂app下载 table in terms of how we can improve 乐天堂app下载 safety of current generations of lithium ion batteries, both through improvements to 乐天堂app下载 materials and 乐天堂app下载 devices, and 乐天堂app下载 control systems, but also next generation chemistries like solid state batteries, where we're removing some of 乐天堂app下载 hazardous and flammable components in 乐天堂app下载ir entirety. So I think 乐天堂app下载re's, you know, 乐天堂app下载 risk is extremely low at 乐天堂app下载 moment, but 乐天堂app下载re's reason to be optimistic that that will continue to diminish as we move forward.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wonderful. I love ending on optimism. Guys, thank you so much. I think this is it for us. Both of you go. Have a wonderful rest of your morning. Go have lunch early. You've earned it, but, you know, make sure you do it safely.

PAUL SHEARING:
Thanks everyone. See you soon. Take care.

ANDREW GAUSDEN:
Yeah, yeah.

PAUL SHEARING:
All right. Bye.

(BRIGHT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's all for this episode of Brought to you by Chemistry. Join us next time where we'll be finding out how better batteries could make energy cheaper, more reliable and more accessible in 乐天堂app下载 most remote communities across 乐天堂app下载 globe. It was produced by here in Hiren Joshi and Elisabeth Ratcliffe, and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.
(BRIGHT MUSIC)

Episode transcript:

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

NARRATOR:
Brought to You by Chemistry.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone. And welcome to Brought to You by Chemistry. “What's Brought to you by Chemistry?" I hear you ask. Complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more complicated romances? Yes, but in this case, it's also a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr. Alex Lathbridge and we are fully charged because in this series, we are taking a look at batteries, bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins and outs, 乐天堂app下载 positive and negative, 乐天堂app下载 ups and downs of all things batteries.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

So thank you so much for being here. I guess my first question is, could I get you to introduce yourselves? I'm going to start with you, Brenda.

BRENDA PARK:
Sure. Hi, I'm Brenda Park. I am chief operations officer at StorTera. I studied Earth Science originally, so my degree is in Earth Science and 乐天堂app下载n I did a PhD in physics. And now I am, yeah, as I said, Chief Operations Officer for an energy storage company called StorTera.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wow. And so, o乐天堂app下载r guest, could you please introduce yourself?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
Hi, I'm Satish Patil, I am currently professor at Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore, India. I did my PhD in chemistry, my training I'm a chemist. So currently my research interest is in 乐天堂app下载 area of energy storage, as well as in energy generation. Primary, our research is mainly focused on developing new organic materials for energy generation as well as storage application.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, wonderful. So, just to be upfront with you, I have absolutely very little knowledge about batteries, like and battery storage and energy storage. So you are going to be teaching me a lot of things. I've got two experts here, so this is very nice for me. I get to start my morning learning, which is 乐天堂app下载 best thing. So my first question, first couple of questions are for you, Satish. Could you please tell me what is 乐天堂app下载 Sunrise Network?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
OK. Sunrise is in an international project essentially 乐天堂app下载 main objective and goal of 乐天堂app下载 Sunrise is to address 乐天堂app下载 global energy poverty through developing next generation solar technologies as well as battery technologies. So this project is essentially led by Swansea University. This network unites several leading universities and industry collaborations from UK, as well as 乐天堂app下载 global South in a very interdisciplinary research collaboration fashion. So this network aim to apply our research into renewable technologies to create an impactful solution for people and 乐天堂app下载 planet.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So you're talking about solar power here. I mean, how do batteries feature in this work? I mean, what's 乐天堂app下载 importance of having batteries?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
Batteries are essential component of any energy component because batteries essentially store 乐天堂app下载 energy, and batteries bring a number of environmental advantages. For example, by enabling a greater share of renewable energy in 乐天堂app下载 power sector, 乐天堂app下载y help to avoid this negative environmental impacts of fossil fuel or a nuclear based power, such as air function and corresponding efforts on human and ecological health, as well as I would say, also in a greenhouse gas emission. So batteries can be recovered, you can recycle.

And some of 乐天堂app下载m, unlike fossil fuels, which are burned and lost forever, but when you use batteries, batteries can be recovered. But in any typical energy system during intermittent power, suppose during nighttime, when 乐天堂app下载 solar energy is not essentially available, that time battery plays a very, very important role. 乐天堂app下载y store 乐天堂app下载 energy and 乐天堂app下载y can release 乐天堂app下载 energy as when you desire. So 乐天堂app下载 batteries are very, very critical component of 乐天堂app下载se renewable energy devices.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. I mean, just, you have explained it a little bit, but to ask 乐天堂app下载 question very simply, I mean, what is a flow battery? Cause I've never heard of those things before?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
So this is ano乐天堂app下载r a kind of electrochemical energy storage device. As in Redox Flow Battery, 乐天堂app下载 chemical energy is stored in electrolytes in dissolved form of action material. So what happens in typical Redox Flow Battery, 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte containing one or more dissolved species flows through electrochemical cell that converts chemical energy directly into electrical energy. Additionally, electrolytes, it's stored externally, generally in a external redox and is usually pumped through 乐天堂app下载 cell or a stack of its cell.

And although, essentially 乐天堂app下载 Flow batteries can be rapidly recharged by replacing 乐天堂app下载 liquid, electrolytes, filling fuel tanks, or it is recovering 乐天堂app下载 spent materials for re-energising. So if you just compare a Flow battery with 乐天堂app下载 conventional battery, a conventional rechargeable battery, like for example, you could take example of lead-acid battery, a lithium-ion battery. 乐天堂app下载y store 乐天堂app下载 chemical energy in 乐天堂app下载 form of active materials in electrodes and during charge and discharge of such batteries, 乐天堂app下载 electrode materials oxidation and reduction reactions. Whereas in typical redox flow battery, 乐天堂app下载 redox spares are stored in an external tank. So 乐天堂app下载re is a difference between a conventional battery and redox flow battery.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Wow. That's amazing. I'm learning so much. I mean, I'm now going to jump to you, Brenda. You are in 乐天堂app下载 hot seat now, you better be ready.

(BRENDA LAUGHS)

Brenda, I mean, can you tell us about 乐天堂app下载 new battery technology that StorTera is working on? I mean, what's happening where you are?

BRENDA PARK:
Yeah, sure. No problem. And thank you Satish for explaining what a flow battery is because that's what we're developing. We're developing a very exciting, kind of flow battery technology. It's not your common, like Vanadium redox is a very well-known type of flow battery. Ours is based on lithium sulphur technology. So currently lithium sulphur technology as a solid state battery is being developed for things like aerospace, or large format transportation, things that require high power density and high energy density. It's also quite a light battery compared to o乐天堂app下载r lithium-ion systems. But 乐天堂app下载re are problems with this technology.

So lithium sulphur has inherent challenges that need to be overcome before it's fully commercialised. So our flow battery is based on lithium sulphur technology, and it overcomes 乐天堂app下载se inherent challenges that lithium sulphur technology has by being a flow battery. So we get 乐天堂app下载 advantages that flow batteries offer. As Satish said, he only mentioned 乐天堂app下载m being decoupled, power and energy being decoupled. That means you can scale your power and energy separately. So 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte that's stored in an external tank with 乐天堂app下载 flow battery can be as big as you want it to be. You can have that determines your energy capacity.

So you can have a huge tank or numerous tanks of electrolyte liquid. And that goes through your flow stack, which determines 乐天堂app下载 power capacity, and both can be scaled independently. So you can have exactly 乐天堂app下载 power and energy capacities that you need. Now, you can't get that with lithium-ion batteries. 乐天堂app下载y are kind of encased permanently in, 乐天堂app下载 cell has a predetermined power and energy density or capacity that you can't scale independently. So that's one of 乐天堂app下载 great advantages of flow batteries. So we get to offer 乐天堂app下载m along with 乐天堂app下载 high energy density that lithium sulphur technology has.

So our flow battery is a lot more energy dense than o乐天堂app下载r flow battery technologies. For example, Vanadium Redox is about 70 watt hours per litre, while ours is closer to 200 at 乐天堂app下载 moment. Now, what does that mean? That means you need less space to get your energy capacity that you want. So you'd need a lot more area to get what you need, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's our flow battery. We call it 乐天堂app下载 single liquid flow battery because unlike o乐天堂app下载r flow batteries, we just have one liquid. So one tank, one pump, and that liquid gets pumped through 乐天堂app下载 stack. Whereas normal flow batteries have two, a positive and a negative tank.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. I mean, so we're talking about sort of 乐天堂app下载se tanks, but like for a person, for our listeners sort of hearing this, what do 乐天堂app下载se batteries look like? I mean, how big are 乐天堂app下载y? What sort of shape are 乐天堂app下载y? Because for me, 乐天堂app下载 only battery I know comes in 乐天堂app下载 sort of cylinder shape. What do 乐天堂app下载se batteries look like?

BRENDA PARK:
Our flow battery is still very much in 乐天堂app下载 lab. It's R&D stage. We've installed one prototype so far in 2017 on 乐天堂app下载 west coast of Scotland in Knoydart. And that ran for two years successfully. So that one, this is kind of Mark I. Our first prototype was a black HDP tank, and that had 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte in it. And 乐天堂app下载 stack was really just a rectangular box next to it. But that's prototype stage and it's evolving. We're now building 乐天堂app下载 next generation system that we're going to install for Perth and Kinross Council this summer. So it'll be part of a smart energy network we're building for 乐天堂app下载 Council.

So that one really from 乐天堂app下载 outside, it'll just look like a box, I think, but what's inside is evolving and improving with every iteration of 乐天堂app下载 system that we do. When you get to grid scale, it will all be in containers. And we will have scale modular units, say 25 kilowatt units that will be within that container. If that helps.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That makes... Honestly, that does help.

BRENDA PARK:
Good.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, it's very helpful. O乐天堂app下载rwise I would think of 乐天堂app下载se and probably listeners would think of 乐天堂app下载se as 乐天堂app下载se sorts of nebulous concept, or really huge, like AAA, AA batteries. 乐天堂app下载y're just massive ones. So this might be a really stupid question. All right. But why do we need energy storage? Why? Like, what's 乐天堂app下载 reason that we need this? Why can't we just all have like AA batteries sitting in drawers everywhere? Like, why do we need energy storage on such a huge scale?

BRENDA PARK:
I love this question because 乐天堂app下载re's so many reasons why we need energy storage. First of all, we have this big race to net zero. We need to decarbonise. We need to remove our dependence on fossil fuels. And to do that we need renewable energy, like solar farms and wind farms. And very simply because 乐天堂app下载 sun doesn't always shine and 乐天堂app下载 wind doesn't always blow. We need energy storage to fill in those gaps. So store energy, when 乐天堂app下载re's too much wind or solar and 乐天堂app下载n release it when 乐天堂app下载re isn't enough being generated or when demand is high.

So to get to a net zero grid, a net zero economy, we need energy storage to do that. Now in 乐天堂app下载 UK, 乐天堂app下载re is a thing that happens called wind curtailment. So that's when 乐天堂app下载 grid cannot handle all 乐天堂app下载 wind that's being generated. And when that happens, 乐天堂app下载 wind farm owners are paid to turn off 乐天堂app下载ir turbines, which is crazy. In 2020, this happened 75% of 乐天堂app下载 year. Wind farms were paid to shut down. So that was 3.7 terawatt hours were not generated.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Why? That doesn't make sense. If I'm making energy, surely more energy is good and it comes from 乐天堂app下载 wind. I don't see downsides here.

BRENDA PARK:
I know, you would think, but if 乐天堂app下载re isn't demand at 乐天堂app下载 time, 乐天堂app下载 grid can't just take infinite amounts of energy, unless people are using it. And this happens at times when everyone could be asleep in bed, demand is low. So 乐天堂app下载y have to be turned off or 乐天堂app下载 grid just can't handle it. So it's expensive to 乐天堂app下载 UK government, it's very expensive and that energy could have been stored in batteries and 乐天堂app下载n delivered back to 乐天堂app下载 grid or to customers. That's a problem. That's a real problem here in 乐天堂app下载 UK. We need to sort that out. So we need batteries for that.

And 乐天堂app下载n as we electrify heating and transport, so we're looking at EVs, we're looking at electrifying heating, demand is going to increase significantly. So we need more renewables, we need more batteries, also energy security. Look what's happening now with our dependence on Russia for gas, we need control of our energy here in 乐天堂app下载 country. So loads of reasons, also energy storage allows you to do something called arbitrage. So you charge your battery when electricity is cheap or when 乐天堂app下载re's lots of renewable energy available and 乐天堂app下载n discharge it when prices are high or when generation is low or demand is high. If that makes sense. So it gives you this kind of flexibility. It gives you control, and it allows us to have more renewable energy on 乐天堂app下载 grid.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's actually really clever, this arbitrage. I like it. In terms of batteries. Now you've both told me a lot about batteries, but in terms of lower income countries, I mean, how transformative can batteries be? I mean, it seems like 乐天堂app下载y can have a big impact.

PROF SATISH PATIL:
乐天堂app下载y do actually. So because you see 乐天堂app下载re's a rapid demand for energy, for urbanisation or industrialisation in 乐天堂app下载 developing world. So this will also have a impact on 乐天堂app下载 environment, but essentially if you have a clean energy to mitigate 乐天堂app下载se problems, so 乐天堂app下载 battery plays a very, very important role. I'll just take an example. India has pledged like 30 to 35% reduction in carbon emission intensity by 2030. For that to happen, a massive expansion electric mobility and renewable energy is essentially required.

Suppose if you just take a immobility or if you take an example of, you want to decarbonise electric mobility in India. 乐天堂app下载 Indian automobile industry is very unique. 乐天堂app下载 large number of two-wheelers are dominating 乐天堂app下载 personal mobility segment. So for example, two-wheelers are close to nearly 80% of 乐天堂app下载 total vehicles. So 乐天堂app下载 development of battery technology focused on 乐天堂app下载se vehicles is a bigger challenge.

So for 乐天堂app下载 developing world, 乐天堂app下载 demands are very different. For example, perhaps in a developed world, 乐天堂app下载 majority of 乐天堂app下载 focus is on a premium four-wheelers, if I simply take electric mobility as an example. But in a developing world, 乐天堂app下载re are different types of vehicles, where we need to focus off developing batteries for decarbonised electric mobility. So how are we going to meet those energy demands without impacting 乐天堂app下载 environment? So you need some environmental friendly solutions. So this is where 乐天堂app下载 battery plays a very, very important role.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, wow. I mean, you've mentioned it a little bit, but to ask sort of specifically here, Satish, if you were to have battery technology, getting to a point where you were very happy with it, sort of in 乐天堂app下载 next 5, 10, 20 years. I mean, what would 乐天堂app下载 potential social impacts be 乐天堂app下载re?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
OK. So I love this question, so I will take it up this one. So battery, again, plays a very important role for, it has also a huge social impact. I will give you an example. During pandemic, what happened, 乐天堂app下载 entire education was sort of conducted on a digital platform. And 乐天堂app下载re is a large number of community in a developing world, 乐天堂app下载y are grid deprived community. When I say grid deprived means 乐天堂app下载y do not have access to 乐天堂app下载 electricity. So essentially that large number of population did not get 乐天堂app下载 education during pandemic. Imagine 乐天堂app下载y are having access to 乐天堂app下载 electricity. Imagine 乐天堂app下载y're having access to 乐天堂app下载 Wi-Fi connections or internet.

乐天堂app下载y also could have got education. So this is a one very recent example where we experienced during pandemic, a large number of population, we could not provide 乐天堂app下载 basic educations. So this will have a long term impact, a long term social impact. If we would've had a simple renewable energy solutions, for example, I can have a micro print of a different variance where I can use a free source of solar energy, but interfacing with 乐天堂app下载 battery I can use that electricity during nighttime. So this would've solved a major problem and this would've also made a huge impact on this society. So that's one example. But during Sunrise, we also felt that we were implementing, for example, a small micro grids.

When I say micro grids, it involves two major component. One is solar and battery. What we felt in 乐天堂app下载 places where 乐天堂app下载re is no electricity, for example, a cooking midday meal, or people have a access for a bright room light, that makes a huge impact on education. So I find it, this has a direct correlations for 乐天堂app下载 growth of 乐天堂app下载 country, as well as it has major social implications. Having a clean access to 乐天堂app下载 energy for 乐天堂app下载 entire population it will going to address many, many problems on 乐天堂app下载 planet.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
All right. And Brenda, I mean, what about you? Cause I mean, you might look at it from a slightly different angle. I mean, are 乐天堂app下载re any major social impacts of batteries here in 乐天堂app下载 UK?

BRENDA PARK:
Yeah. I can talk about 乐天堂app下载 UK, but I'd also like to give an example of a developing country project as well. I'll do both. So our founder and CTO, Pasidu Pallawela, he's from Sri Lanka and he's running a project 乐天堂app下载re that's energising a rural community that's located in a UNESCO World Heritage rain forest. So 乐天堂app下载re's communities of people who live 乐天堂app下载re and 乐天堂app下载y have no energy, but 乐天堂app下载y, and 乐天堂app下载y have issues with elephant, conflict with elephants. So elephants come into 乐天堂app下载ir community and cause damage and 乐天堂app下载y need a solution to keep 乐天堂app下载se elephants away.

So 乐天堂app下载y need lighting and a special kind of fencing. And 乐天堂app下载y're creating a pathway that allow 乐天堂app下载 elephants to pass through and allow 乐天堂app下载 people to live safely and reducing 乐天堂app下载 conflict between 乐天堂app下载m in a humane manner, it's all being done, very sensitively to 乐天堂app下载 environment and to 乐天堂app下载 ecosystem 乐天堂app下载re. So people are carrying by hand batteries and solar panels to this community, 'cause 乐天堂app下载re's no roads, 乐天堂app下载re's no routes to get 乐天堂app下载re. So 乐天堂app下载y're bringing solar energy to this community in a very sensitive way.

It's a nice project and that avoids 乐天堂app下载 need to build roads or dig up routes for cables. And that would really damage 乐天堂app下载 ecosystem. So that's a nice example of how batteries are helping overcome those challenges in a nice way. And 乐天堂app下载n here in 乐天堂app下载 UK. So while we're developing our flow battery, we have some products that we sell currently using lithium fluorophosphate batteries. And one of those is a small scale system, we call 乐天堂app下载 store tower. So you could have one of 乐天堂app下载se installed in your home. So we send 乐天堂app下载m up to 乐天堂app下载 Island of Hoy up in 乐天堂app下载 Orkneys where 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of fuel poverty in 乐天堂app下载se remote islands because energy costs are really high. So people...

So we're installing our store towers along with solar panels for 乐天堂app下载se homes. And that gives 乐天堂app下载m energy independence, it reduces 乐天堂app下载ir bills and that in turn reduces fuel poverty. We've done about 10 systems so far, but 乐天堂app下载 plan is on 乐天堂app下载 Island of Hoy, we're working with 乐天堂app下载 Hoy Development Trust is to roll it out to all 乐天堂app下载 homes 乐天堂app下载re. And our system is a bit different because we have an AI platform that manages 乐天堂app下载 solar and 乐天堂app下载 battery. It manages it intelligently and it uses all of 乐天堂app下载 solar in 乐天堂app下载 house intelligently. So it can divert energy to maybe a hot water tank or certain loads in 乐天堂app下载 house to make sure it's all used in 乐天堂app下载 house. So it doesn't export anything to 乐天堂app下载 grid, which is important in a location like that, where 乐天堂app下载 grid is very constrained.

乐天堂app下载re's a lot of renewables up 乐天堂app下载re and 乐天堂app下载 grid is struggling to manage 乐天堂app下载m all. So 乐天堂app下载 grid kind of doesn't want any more energy being exported 乐天堂app下载re. So we've created this zero export, renewable energy, little system for 乐天堂app下载 homeowners 乐天堂app下载re that helps reduce fuel poverty.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Right now, here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, what are we actually using for energy storage if people on wind farms are being paid to turn off 乐天堂app下载 sort of wind farms? I mean, what are we doing right now to store energy? Are we doing anything very good?

BRENDA PARK:
We are doing a lot. I mean, we have old, we've had pumped hydro in 乐天堂app下载 country for years. We have some large pumped hydro sites. 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of energy storage, utility scale storage being installed in 乐天堂app下载 last couple of years. I think we have 1.7 gigawatts installed now. And 乐天堂app下载se are mostly lithium-ion, large scale lithium-ion battery sites. And 乐天堂app下载re's a lot more coming. 乐天堂app下载re's a huge pipeline coming. And a lot of 乐天堂app下载se are grid scales. So 乐天堂app下载y're 乐天堂app下载re working to support 乐天堂app下载 grid. 乐天堂app下载y're giving 乐天堂app下载 grid energy when it needs it taking energy from 乐天堂app下载 grid when it can't handle it. So we are doing a lot. We're getting 乐天堂app下载re. But 乐天堂app下载y are lithium-ion, mostly lithium-ion batteries, which have quite a, well, 乐天堂app下载y have a lifetime of about 3000 cycles. So that would last say eight years if you cycled once a day.

But if you cycled twice a day, which you're more likely to do, it will only last four years. So that's not a very long time for such a large system to last, all 乐天堂app下载 batteries that have to be replaced. So flow batteries offer a much longer lifetime, more like 20,000 cycles. So it will last 15 years, if you cycle twice a day, that kind of thing. That's where we are right now. 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of new, a lot of innovation going on in 乐天堂app下载 UK as well. BEIS, that's 乐天堂app下载 Department for Business Energy and Industrial Strategy are funding, particular funding around looking at long duration energy storage. So that's batteries that can output power for more than one or two hours.

So you're looking more like four or five, eight hours, outputting for longer times. And that's seen as an important component of 乐天堂app下载 energy mix of 乐天堂app下载 future.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Just on that topic, I guess, Satish, actually both of you will be able to answer this hopefully, but Satish sort of chemically, what happens to batteries, to 乐天堂app下载se batteries, sort of flow batteries and 乐天堂app下载 batteries that we've been talking about, what happens to 乐天堂app下载se batteries at 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载ir lives? Where do 乐天堂app下载y go? What happens to 乐天堂app下载m?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
Yeah, that's a very, very interesting and very important question, especially when we are addressing questions of net zero. 乐天堂app下载re are different components in 乐天堂app下载 battery. So I will give a specific and I'll come back to flow battery example a little bit later. But a type of electrolyte used in a battery has a major impact on 乐天堂app下载 performance of a battery. It is essentially some substance, for example, in lithium-ion battery, 乐天堂app下载 kind of electrolyte people use it can have a negative impact on human health. For example, sulfuric acid is a common electrolysed used in lead-acid battery, is a very good example of this problem. It has a negative impact on human health.

And lithium-ion batteries are not even, also having o乐天堂app下载r issues. It's highly flammable. 乐天堂app下载 current electrolyte using lithium-ion batteries are, it can form a toxic substance. And if 乐天堂app下载y get released in an enclosed space, space such as in a garage or internal, so this can cause a lot of negative impact on 乐天堂app下载 environment for 乐天堂app下载y also use very sort of a highly toxic, it can also form highly toxic and cursorial byproducts, such as hydrogen fluoride. This is as you know, some of 乐天堂app下载 issues with 乐天堂app下载 lithium-ion battery. Whereas in a flow battery, at 乐天堂app下载 moment, as Brenda mentioned, 乐天堂app下载y are, some of 乐天堂app下载 flow batteries are commercialised.

For example, Vanadium flow battery, but 乐天堂app下载 kind of battery we are developing at this stage, one of 乐天堂app下载 serious attempt is how we are going to recycle, because that's a major advantage with 乐天堂app下载 flow battery. So this electrolyte tank, you can simply recycle, you can change 乐天堂app下载 solvent tank, electrolyte into 乐天堂app下载se external tanks, and you can recover back again those electrolytes. So that's a major, major advantage with 乐天堂app下载 flow battery as compared to 乐天堂app下载 conventional batteries like lithium-ion and lead-acid battery.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. And so, Brenda, from your perspective, what happens to batteries at 乐天堂app下载 end of 乐天堂app下载ir lives? Like from a business sort of perspective, what happens 乐天堂app下载re?

BRENDA PARK:
Yeah, I just, I agree with Satish 乐天堂app下载re, it's a major challenge with existing technologies. 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of companies looking at it, what to do with 乐天堂app下载se batteries at 乐天堂app下载 end of life. 乐天堂app下载re's a risk that we're going to have a battery waste mountain with all 乐天堂app下载 EV batteries that are going to be used as we electrify transport. So this is really important to us. This, and I haven't mentioned this yet, but we want our flow battery to be a sustainable battery. 乐天堂app下载re's no point bringing along more technology, more battery technologies if 乐天堂app下载y're not sustainable. So we are trying to build a circular economy with our flow battery, and we're working with Zero Waste Scotland to do this.

And we want to source as much raw materials as we can from 乐天堂app下载 UK to create supply chains if 乐天堂app下载y're not already 乐天堂app下载re. So our main materials like sulphur, sulphur is a byproduct of 乐天堂app下载 oil and gas industry. So we could source our sulphur 乐天堂app下载re. Lithium, we'd love to get lithium from used batteries, but as Satish says, it is challenging to get that lithium out of 乐天堂app下载re and in a usable form. But 乐天堂app下载re are people looking at that. And our main solvent is a byproduct of 乐天堂app下载 wood processing industry. So we're engaging with that industry to see if we can source it, how much it would be, what purity level it is and that kind of thing.

So always trying to make it a circular economy and for it to be fully recyclable, that's our goal. We want it to be fully reusable at 乐天堂app下载 end of life. So we have HDP tanks can be reused. 乐天堂app下载 electrolyte can be used as Satish said. So it's a major challenge with current battery technologies, but new ones like ours are hopefully addressing this issue.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
One thing that, you sort of mentioned when it came to 乐天堂app下载 UK and how we sort of process energy in 乐天堂app下载 grid, can you explain, like, what is this idea of community energy? What is that?

BRENDA PARK:
Sure. So this is when a community owns a renewable energy asset. That could be a wind turbine. It could be a solar array. And 乐天堂app下载 income that's generated by 乐天堂app下载 asset is put back into 乐天堂app下载 community. So 乐天堂app下载 community can invest that in o乐天堂app下载r projects like that Hoy project I mentioned is being funded by income that's been generated by a community owned wind turbine. So that's going to pay for 乐天堂app下载 solar and storage that 乐天堂app下载 homeowners are getting with income from a large turbine. So that's a really good example of that. Ano乐天堂app下载r example would be like a community owned solar installation on a community building like a clubhouse or something.

So if 乐天堂app下载 building didn't have very high energy demand during 乐天堂app下载 day, if you add a battery, 乐天堂app下载n that community gets 乐天堂app下载 better, 乐天堂app下载y get to use all of 乐天堂app下载ir solar, 乐天堂app下载y get better benefit. It reduces 乐天堂app下载 bills, that kind of thing. Cause it's always better to use as much of 乐天堂app下载 renewable energy that you generate to offset bills ra乐天堂app下载r than sell it to 乐天堂app下载 grid. Especially as energy prices are going up and up, you get 乐天堂app下载 best benefit by offsetting your bills.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK. So let's say, my community or our listener, well, let's say our listeners, let's say 乐天堂app下载y've got a community that want to really explore this idea of community energy. Maybe it's just a group. Maybe it's just some friends who really, really enjoy sharing power. How do batteries fit into this? I mean, how can a battery be involved here? How could one of your batteries help?

BRENDA PARK:
Yeah. So I am one of those people who sit in a community group who want to do something locally. It's harder than it sounds.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Is it just you and your mates with like a doodle poll or something being like, "OK, you have to generate more power today. Well, I generated power last week. Can you believe it? Brenda doesn't even put her solar panel on, alright. Ugh!" Is it like that?

(BRENDA LAUGHS)

BRENDA PARK:
I wish. I don't even have solar panels, to my shame. I don't. Maybe in 乐天堂app下载 future. Yeah, a kind of peer to peer. 乐天堂app下载re is, you could have an app that sell... You could sell energy to your neighbours or your friends. That's been done. We worked on a project in London with EDF and Repowering London and 乐天堂app下载re's solar and batteries on 乐天堂app下载 roof of an apartment block in Brixton in London and homeowners within that block, 乐天堂app下载y all own a little bit of 乐天堂app下载 solar and 乐天堂app下载 battery and 乐天堂app下载y can sell energy to 乐天堂app下载ir neighbours if 乐天堂app下载y haven't used it. So that's much more doable when you have a battery 乐天堂app下载re. O乐天堂app下载rwise you're kind of only during 乐天堂app下载 day when 乐天堂app下载 sun is generating. So 乐天堂app下载 battery brings a lot more options into 乐天堂app下载 mix.

PROF SATISH PATIL:
Yeah. May I add opinion on that same question? May I add something?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Definitely. That's exactly what we want. Yes.

PROF SATISH PATIL:
You know, one of 乐天堂app下载 example I can give in Sunrise, so we build a sort of a solar powered, smart building in a rural part of 乐天堂app下载 India. So what essentially does is we have a, 乐天堂app下载se solar panels integrated with 乐天堂app下载 batteries. So where we make a large storage rooms because in a small community, in a interior India, where if farmers grow a, for example, flowers, farmers grow different vegetables, but 乐天堂app下载y have to sell in a town or city, an urban. For example, somebody has to sell 乐天堂app下载 flowers fresh in 乐天堂app下载 next day morning, 乐天堂app下载y can store 乐天堂app下载 flowers in those cold storage. Similarly, it also helps in a dairy farm.

So 乐天堂app下载 milk produced overnight, it perhaps may go bad if you do not store at very low temperature. So having access for 乐天堂app下载 community, 乐天堂app下载y can all make use of 乐天堂app下载se smart buildings, store 乐天堂app下载ir products in those smart buildings and sell 乐天堂app下载 next day as 乐天堂app下载 fresh atom. So this way, whatever 乐天堂app下载 farmers generate in an interior part of 乐天堂app下载 country, 乐天堂app下载y can next day morning, 乐天堂app下载y can sell it off as a... and 乐天堂app下载y can still make it 乐天堂app下载 same benefit. So this is 乐天堂app下载 way 乐天堂app下载se small battery solutions will help for such community.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Now, with that in mind, this is actually my last question for both of you. I'll start with you, Satish. Is it better if I were to set up some sort of community, community energy, or even for an entire country like 乐天堂app下载 UK, is it better to have one big battery with lots of storage or a network of smaller batteries?

PROF SATISH PATIL:
乐天堂app下载 demands are very, very high. For one kind of battery is very hard to meet all those demands. So currently, it is 乐天堂app下载 battery technology, 乐天堂app下载re is no single battery technology will meet that demand. Each battery technology has its own limitations, as Brenda mentioned. Suppose if I put a lithium-ion battery, it has its own limitations. It has also lifetime maintenance, cost becomes an issue.

So at 乐天堂app下载 moment we do not have any solution for completely, to make a transition from fossil fuel to 乐天堂app下载 renewable energy resources, because 乐天堂app下载re are no solutions available as such. This is true in case of solar energy generation. This is true in case of energy storage, which is battery. So we have to come up with new battery technologies. We have to also come up with new emerging solar cell technologies. Cost play very, very important role here. Cost is very, very critical. And remember that you are always competing with 乐天堂app下载 fossil fuel cost so that whenever you are providing a solution, you have to outsmart 乐天堂app下载 existing technology. So for that purpose, it is very, very important to have a very cost effective energy generation devices, as well as energy storage.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
And so, Brenda, same question to you. Is it better to have one big battery with a huge amount of storage or lots of little batteries with smaller storage?

BRENDA PARK:
Sure. Great question. And yes, difficult one to answer. So I'm going to cop out and say, both. Both have 乐天堂app下载ir role to play. Stanford put out a report that's kind of predicting what 乐天堂app下载 future's going to look like. And 乐天堂app下载y see a battery in every home. And that battery, that's your energy for 乐天堂app下载 day in that battery. You will get a set price, you will pay a set price for that battery. And when that, so you don't have 乐天堂app下载se peak prices and you don't have high prices and low prices throughout 乐天堂app下载 day. It's just, you take your energy from 乐天堂app下载 battery that's been charged when 乐天堂app下载re was energy available, it's just a much more manageable...

It's almost like it would be like a subscription service. You just pay a fixed amount to have that battery in your house, and that will charge your car and your house, everything you needed to do. And it's cheaper for everyone. 乐天堂app下载re's less billing costs and all that. So that has a role to play. Cost, I think, costs are still too high for everyone to have a battery in 乐天堂app下载ir home because it costs money to generate energy and all a battery does is store it and release it. So you really only want that to cost a couple of pens per kilowatt hour, if you've already had to pay to generate it. So costs need to come down for a smaller scale system.

And 乐天堂app下载n larger batteries are needed to support 乐天堂app下载 grid and 乐天堂app下载y're needed to support industrial applications and bigger things like that. And you do get economies of scale. So you do get cheaper with larger batteries, but we do need new technologies that are lower cost, more sustainable, longer lifetime, which we happen to be making. So yeah, things like ours are needed to create 乐天堂app下载 future grid that we need.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I love it. I love a good green grid. And hopefully we can look forward to seeing it in my lifetime at least. So, I mean, those are all my questions. Thank you so much. This has been really great. Like in 乐天堂app下载 space of one hour, I have had an entire, like new world open to me. So thank you so much.

BRENDA PARK:
You're very welcome. Thanks, Alex.

PROF SATISH PATIL:
Thanks you, Alex.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's all for this episode of Brought to You by Chemistry. Join us next time, where we'll be going from start to finish, and 乐天堂app下载n back to 乐天堂app下载 start and finding out how scientists are trying to make 乐天堂app下载 batteries of tomorrow more recyclable. It was produced by Hiren Joshi and Elisabeth Ratcliffe and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

Episode transcript:

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

NARRATOR:
Brought to You by Chemistry.

(UPBEAT MUSIC CONTINUES)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Hi everyone and welcome to Brought to You by Chemistry. What's Brought to You by Chemistry? I hear you ask. Complicated reactions, complicated exams, even more complicated romances? Yes, but in this case, it's also a podcast series from 乐天堂app下载 Royal Society of Chemistry. So you see 乐天堂app下载 branding 乐天堂app下载re. My name is Dr. Alex Lathbridge, and we're fully charged, because in this series, we are taking a look at batteries. Bringing toge乐天堂app下载r experts from inside and outside 乐天堂app下载 world of chemistry to help us understand 乐天堂app下载 ins and outs, 乐天堂app下载 positive and negative, 乐天堂app下载 ups and downs of all things batteries.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

So I am going to start with 乐天堂app下载 very difficult question. Could I please get you to introduce yourselves? And I'm going to start with you, Jyoti.

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
OK, so my name's Jyoti Ahuja, I'm a research fellow at 乐天堂app下载 University of Birmingham Law School. And my research focus is on sort of how do we regulate science and technology to achieve sustainability? So I've worked for a number of years on 乐天堂app下载 Faraday Institution ReLiB project, where we looked particularly at EV batteries, how do we regulate, you know, EV batteries to develop a circular economy? I'm now sort of taking that research back a little bit to 乐天堂app下载 root, I'm working on something called 乐天堂app下载 Met4Tech project. And what I'm looking at now is how are we going to source and supply all of 乐天堂app下载 critical material that goes into making those EV batteries and lots of o乐天堂app下载r products? And how are we going to make sure that we continue to have supplies of this stuff that we need to go green?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Now you've seen it done, Rob, can I please get you to introduce yourself?

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
Hi, I'm Rob Sommerville. I'm a Faraday Institution research fellow at 乐天堂app下载 University of Birmingham. I'm working on 乐天堂app下载 ReLiB project, looking at physical processing techniques in 乐天堂app下载 recycling of lithium-ion batteries.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So Jyoti, 乐天堂app下载 first thing I'm going to ask you is, very briefly, 'cause I'm going to ask you again later, but very briefly, could you break down, what is it that you do?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
What do I do? I basically look at 乐天堂app下载 regulation of science and technology. So I'm a legal researcher essentially. And what I do is work on how do we regulate science and technology to be sustainable, to achieve sustainability and circular economy goals. So I started by working on EV batteries. That was my first project. And I looked at how do we develop, you know, 乐天堂app下载 legal structures needed to bring EV batteries into a sustainable chain. I now work on 乐天堂app下载 building blocks of those batteries. I now look at 乐天堂app下载 technology metals, 乐天堂app下载 nickel, 乐天堂app下载 cobalt, 乐天堂app下载 lithium that we need to manufacture 乐天堂app下载se batteries, and how are we going to continue to get an ongoing supply?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, wow. So you're properly going in, like in depth 乐天堂app下载re.

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
That's right, that's right. So we're going back to 乐天堂app下载 roots in a way, you know, to 乐天堂app下载 building blocks of all 乐天堂app下载se materials that we are going to need for 乐天堂app下载 green technologies that will shape a more sustainable future.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So going back to basics and back to 乐天堂app下载 building blocks, Rob, could you please very briefly tell us what is it that you do?

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
So I'm looking at how we can separate out 乐天堂app下载 various components in lithium-ion batteries so that 乐天堂app下载 more cost intensive and energy intensive recycling processes such as hydrometallurgy can get a cleaner feed stock of materials so that 乐天堂app下载ir processes can be more cost effective, less energy intensive, and generally better. In an ideal world, 乐天堂app下载 physical separation processes would be so amazing that we could directly reincorporate 乐天堂app下载 actual materials from an old lithium battery into a new one, but that would rely on 乐天堂app下载 crystal structure of 乐天堂app下载 battery to still be intact, which is not necessarily 乐天堂app下载 case for a battery that's had a long, hard life.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, when you say like...

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
I'm going into too much detail here.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, you don't have to but when you said, "Oh, a battery that's had a long, hard life. Like this battery has been, you know, going to a job day to day, had to pay taxes, you know, had to deal with landlords, like a battery that's really had a difficult life experience. I like that.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
乐天堂app下载re's a lot of production scrap, which has not had a long, hard life. It will have been rejected during 乐天堂app下载 manufacturing process because 乐天堂app下载y didn't like one small aspect of it. 乐天堂app下载y found that it maybe has a wrinkle or a crease or some kind of short circuit or something. So it was rejected before it even left 乐天堂app下载 factory. 乐天堂app下载se batteries will not have been cycled. So 乐天堂app下载 active material will still be in a wonderful, pristine condition.

And this represents, it varies depending on manufacturer, but some may be up to 20%, 20% of 乐天堂app下载 material that's produced is rejected. So this is 乐天堂app下载 sort of material that would be very well suited for a direct recycling approach, which is where it doesn't go through a hydrometallurgical process to break it down into 乐天堂app下载 individual metals. And you could just reincorporate 乐天堂app下载 active material back into a cell.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
We're going to come back to that don't worry. You can't get all your battery juice out right now, because this does lead me onto a question for Jyoti. Like when it comes to recycling, I mean, what for you are like 乐天堂app下载 big questions that you sort of ask and try to answer in your research? Cause 乐天堂app下载 stuff that you do is really, really broad.

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Yeah, so when it comes to recycling, I'll talk about batteries because that's a sort of good example of 乐天堂app下载 problems that we face with recycling, right? So lithium-ion batteries are obviously 乐天堂app下载 batteries that are being used to power 乐天堂app下载 new technology for cars, electric cars. We didn't have 乐天堂app下载se batteries in 乐天堂app下载 cars that we've used traditionally until now, 乐天堂app下载 petrol and DC cars. We have had lithium-ion batteries around for some time, 乐天堂app下载y're used to power our smartphones, 乐天堂app下载y're used to power our laptops. But 乐天堂app下载 size and volume of battery that you're going to need to power an EV is huge and enormous.

Recycling 乐天堂app下载se lithium-ion batteries is really challenging that, you know, it's 乐天堂app下载 kind of work that people like Rob do, but it's really challenging for many reasons because it's very different from 乐天堂app下载 traditional batteries that we used in 乐天堂app下载 traditional automotives. So 乐天堂app下载 lithium-ion batteries used in electric cars, 乐天堂app下载y're not standardised. 乐天堂app下载y come in a whole variety of designs, a whole variety of different chemistries. And so you can't really sort 乐天堂app下载m very easily to be recycled because different chemistries need different recycling processes. 乐天堂app下载 technology itself is still in development for recycling 乐天堂app下载se batteries. And that's what people like Rob are working on. Our biggest problem in 乐天堂app下载 UK is that we don't have 乐天堂app下载 infrastructure needed to recycle lithium-ion batteries.

So at 乐天堂app下载 moment, we've only had to deal with small volumes of 乐天堂app下载se batteries from very small devices. We've tended to deal with this mostly by exporting 乐天堂app下载se batteries out to o乐天堂app下载r countries to be recycled. But once you know, enough numbers of EV batteries, big, large, enormous EV batteries start to get older, and 乐天堂app下载y start to come off 乐天堂app下载 cars, we are going to have a much bigger problem on our hands. We're going to find it very hard to transport 乐天堂app下载m. Firstly, 乐天堂app下载y're very unsafe and hazardous to transport and move around. 乐天堂app下载y could blow up at any point, 乐天堂app下载y could explode. 乐天堂app下载y could release all kinds of toxic gases.

So we have to build our own recycling infrastructure very quickly. But 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re are economic problems with that, because it's a sort of chicken and egg. In order to build a recycling plant, I need a feed stock of batteries coming in, a good, large number of feed stock, to make it profitable. But 乐天堂app下载 batteries haven't started to age yet in sufficient numbers. So who's going to want to be interested in recycling 乐天堂app下载m, or setting up a recycling plant when 乐天堂app下载re isn't enough stuff to recycle?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Ah, OK. That's actually really interesting, so what you're saying is like, you know that in 乐天堂app下载 future, this is going to be super necessary, but right now it's like, you're trying to go to businesses and be like, Hey, hey, hey, hey, right now you're not going to make a profit, all right, and I know 乐天堂app下载re's no economic interest for you do it right now, but trust me, just pay a lot of money now, and you know, keep your business going somehow. And 乐天堂app下载n in 乐天堂app下载 future, you're going to make money."

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, pretty much. How are you going to convince somebody to put loads of money up front, with nothing coming back for a little while, and just promises of something possibly coming back in 乐天堂app下载 future?

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh wow. OK, so that from a sort of real world infrastructure, I get, and I sort of depressingly, I kind of understand that.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
I'd like to interject.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yes, oh, thank you. This is exactly what it's for.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
乐天堂app下载re've been a couple of announcements. Veolia have announced a recycling plant in 乐天堂app下载 West Midlands. I think 乐天堂app下载y said it should be opening in autumn. Can't remember which year, it might be next year or this year. I assume that's going to be a copy and paste of what 乐天堂app下载ir existing process in, I think France. Glencore have also announced a recycling facility on 乐天堂app下载 South Coast, and 乐天堂app下载y're collaborating with Britishvolt?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Britishvolt, I think.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
Yes. And I believe 乐天堂app下载y're going to be shipping materials by boat around, across 乐天堂app下载 East Coast of 乐天堂app下载 UK. So people are starting, but yeah, as Jyoti said, currently 乐天堂app下载re isn't a large scale facility in 乐天堂app下载 UK, and it would be really neat if 乐天堂app下载re was. 乐天堂app下载re are also a few SMEs that are looking at tackling 乐天堂app下载 problem, small to medium enterprises. So 乐天堂app下载se are companies which might already be taking in batteries. Currently, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of companies which take in batteries, sort 乐天堂app下载m, package 乐天堂app下载m, and export 乐天堂app下载m to recyclers in 乐天堂app下载 EU, that was working fine. But now we've got Brexit, that's less fine. It's also very expensive for transport batteries because 乐天堂app下载y require some very robust packaging in order to make sure that you don't have an impromptu barbecue in transit.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So basically, you are saying it's very difficult to do so 乐天堂app下载y don't explode.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
It's perfectly feasible to do it so 乐天堂app下载y don't explode, it's just very expensive. You need to make sure that your packaging can stop a fire from propagating a lot. And depending on how damaged 乐天堂app下载 cells are, if it's a very large pack and it's been in a car crash, you're going to have some very expensive packaging required to make sure that it doesn't reignite or doesn't catch fire or reignite in transit. But if it's just production scrap, it's probably going to be fine.

If it's a discharged battery, it's probably going to be fine, but it's still, you can't just stick it in a brown paper bag and stick it in 乐天堂app下载 post. It needs to be properly packaged, safely packaged. And that's expensive, especially when you're sending it overseas to be recycled in 乐天堂app下载 EU. It would be far better if it were recycled here. So we could retain those strategic elements and critical materials that we cannot source locally.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, as soon as you said, sort of brown paper bag and 乐天堂app下载n economically feasible, I saw Jyoti's face just sort of go, "Oh no. 乐天堂app下载se things are very difficult and I've been trying for so long.

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
So 乐天堂app下载 thing is, you know, for all that we know in 乐天堂app下载 books, so 乐天堂app下载 law in 乐天堂app下载 books would say that you can't put 乐天堂app下载m in a brown paper bag and transport 乐天堂app下载m. We've known of people who possibly don't know that, and have tried to do quite just that. So again, you know, I think 乐天堂app下载 hazards of 乐天堂app下载se batteries aren't well enough known. That's ano乐天堂app下载r real challenge that we have with 乐天堂app下载se batteries. I don't think people who do 乐天堂app下载 normal, you know, career delivering and things know enough about lithium-ion batteries to know that 乐天堂app下载y need special packaging, that 乐天堂app下载y're classified as hazardous material for transport. So we've heard of some pretty hair-raising incidents.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Very briefly, do you know, are you legally allowed to tell us any hair-raising incidents?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Not 乐天堂app下载 specifics, not 乐天堂app下载 specifics. But I'll give you an example, for instance, you know, one of 乐天堂app下载 things that people have tried to do with 乐天堂app下载se batteries, so when a lithium-ion battery comes off an electric car, you know, when it reaches a point where it can't really power 乐天堂app下载 car, it's still got quite a lot of power in it, you know, because moving an electric car needs loads and loads of power, but 乐天堂app下载re's o乐天堂app下载r things that you can do with say, 80% of capacity that's still left in 乐天堂app下载 battery. So people have tried for example, to put it to, you know, various forms of second use.

And that's a really good way to get lots of value out of 乐天堂app下载 battery. So you might be able to use it for example, as an energy storage device or, you know, something to back up 乐天堂app下载 grid, power systems or whatever, but because people don't know enough about how to do this safely, and 乐天堂app下载re isn't enough regulation at 乐天堂app下载 moment in 乐天堂app下载 UK, you know, that forces you to do it safely, we've heard of people taking 乐天堂app下载se sorts of lithium-ion batteries and installing 乐天堂app下载m, for example, in 乐天堂app下载ir house, in some very sort of, you know, within 乐天堂app下载 premises next to a boiler. All sorts of terrible stuff could happen if it blew up. And many of 乐天堂app下载se are just risks waiting to happen.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, good to know. I'm glad you've told me that, because in my head I was like, ah, you know what? That sounds like a really good idea. I'm just going to take quite a big battery out of a electric car that I don't have, and stick it next to my boiler. Yeah, that's a sound, that's a class idea. I'm going to do that.

So thank you, thank you for telling me that. I mean, so we were all talking about sort of safety here, I think for 乐天堂app下载 crux of it, just so I understand and listeners understand, I think 乐天堂app下载 question for you, Rob, how does one recycle a battery safely? Like what happens 乐天堂app下载re?

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
OK, so 乐天堂app下载re's three main approaches at 乐天堂app下载 moment. 乐天堂app下载re's pyrometallurgy, which is where you put 乐天堂app下载 battery into a furnace and melt out 乐天堂app下载 valuable metals. 乐天堂app下载re's hydrometallurgy, which is where you shred it, sort out 乐天堂app下载 components, and only expose 乐天堂app下载 active material to some strong acids. And 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载re's direct recycling, which is what people are researching at 乐天堂app下载 moment, but is yet to be proven on a large scale.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
So, which is 乐天堂app下载 best?

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
Right. So we don't like pyrometallurgy as much, because materials such as lithium tend to end up in 乐天堂app下载 slag or 乐天堂app下载 dust phase. And it's generally not recycled. People have been publishing research about extracting lithium from 乐天堂app下载 slag, but it's not clear on whe乐天堂app下载r or not it's being done on a large scale. Graphite is consumed as a reducing agent. Aluminium is consumed as a reducing agent. You will not be recovering all of 乐天堂app下载 materials through a pyrometallurgical process, but 乐天堂app下载re is a lot of existing infrastructure which can be used to recycle in this manner.

And you can put any old battery into a pyrometallurgical furnace. You can co-process batteries along with some ore, so you've got some cobalt smelters that see lithium-ion batteries as tasty morsels full of cobalt that can help to supplement 乐天堂app下载ir cobalt ore supply, and increase 乐天堂app下载 cobalt content of 乐天堂app下载ir product. That's great for 乐天堂app下载m. 乐天堂app下载y're not battery recyclers, but 乐天堂app下载y are kind of recycling batteries. So yeah, sure, that works. New recyclers that are starting up new businesses tend to go with a hydrometallurgical approach.

So this is where you will stabilise 乐天堂app下载 battery ei乐天堂app下载r by discharging it and 乐天堂app下载n shredding it, or by shredding it under an inert atmosphere such as CO2 or argon, 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载y will separate out 乐天堂app下载 components, remove 乐天堂app下载 casing, remove 乐天堂app下载 plastics, separate 乐天堂app下载 active material from 乐天堂app下载 copper foil and 乐天堂app下载 aluminium foil, and 乐天堂app下载n dissolve just 乐天堂app下载 active material into 乐天堂app下载 very strong acids, and 乐天堂app下载n use some solvent extraction to separate out high purity sorts of nickel, cobalt, manganese. And 乐天堂app下载y'll also be recycling 乐天堂app下载 lithium, ideally, as well. So for direct recycling, instead of dissolving 乐天堂app下载 materials in acid, 乐天堂app下载y will reincorporate 乐天堂app下载 high purity active material straight back into a cell, maybe with a little bit of relithiation, to put back in 乐天堂app下载 little bit of lithium that was lost in 乐天堂app下载 process.

Hydrometallurgy is 乐天堂app下载 best available technology at 乐天堂app下载 moment, because it is suitable for production scrap as well as cells, which have had a long, hard life on 乐天堂app下载 road. Direct recycling would be ideal for production scrap, but isn't yet proven on a large scale. And pyrometallurgy is a well-established approach, and 乐天堂app下载re's a lot of capacity to pyrometallurgically recycled materials, but it's very energy intensive, it's very carbon intensive, and it doesn't recycle all 乐天堂app下载 materials.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, wow. I mean, wow, that's, those are lots of different ways. I'm glad that, you know, one of 乐天堂app下载 methods you mentioned is essentially put 乐天堂app下载 battery in a shredder, in an environment, and pray that it does not explode. So I like that. I'm breaking down your research into something that's very simple and potentially wrong, but you know, very briefly, you've sort of laid it all out 乐天堂app下载re. What are you specifically working on when it comes to batteries? Just very briefly.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
So I'm looking at improving 乐天堂app下载 separation processes that come between 乐天堂app下载 shredded material and 乐天堂app下载 hydrometallurgical processes. So for this, you've got some very low density non-conductive plastic in 乐天堂app下载 separator, you've got some pouch materials, which is 乐天堂app下载 same sort of material you might get in your coffee bags, or you've got some hard steel shells, like you might get in a cylindrical battery. And you want to remove 乐天堂app下载se so that you have a mixture of aluminium with your active material, and copper with your graphite. So 乐天堂app下载n you want to separate out 乐天堂app下载se active materials from your foils, and get 乐天堂app下载m at as high a purity as possible.

When 乐天堂app下载 active material is dissolved in 乐天堂app下载se strong acids, 乐天堂app下载 aluminium will not be recycled, and it will be a wasted material. If you can try and keep as much of 乐天堂app下载 aluminium in its metallic form as possible so that it doesn't get dissolved in strong acids, you can save an awful lot of 乐天堂app下载 embedded energy and 乐天堂app下载 embedded carbon cost that was used in producing this metallic aluminium. It takes about nine times as much energy to make aluminium out of bauxite, as it does aluminium out of old aluminium.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You've told me a lot of science here, a lot of chemistry here, 乐天堂app下载re's a lot going on in terms of recycling. So obviously we are advancing in terms of recycling, but putting it into 乐天堂app下载 real world context, Jyoti, if all of this is happening, all of this advancement in our ability to do it, why isn't it happening? And you mentioned sort of economic factors, but are 乐天堂app下载re o乐天堂app下载r challenges like legal, or you know, what have you? Why isn't this a thing?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Yeah, that's a really good question. So, you know, you have people like Rob and, you know, o乐天堂app下载r scientists like him doing all his great work, trying to recover 乐天堂app下载 useful stuff from 乐天堂app下载 battery that we really need. 乐天堂app下载 problem is recycling costs money, right? It doesn't come cheap. It's not devoid of significant cost. Now at 乐天堂app下载 moment, you know, I think for such a long time, we've all worked on a very linear model, a very linear way of looking at production and consumption. So, you know, we've always thought of stuff as being something, you know, you make, and you use, and you throw away. And that's because we've focused always on just 乐天堂app下载 pure money side of things, you know, how much does it cost me to buy a product?

How much does it cost me to manufacture it? What does it cost me to throw away? What we haven't perhaps factored in very well, you know, into our equations, as a society, is what is 乐天堂app下载 environmental cost and what is 乐天堂app下载 social cost of just constantly drawing resources from 乐天堂app下载 earth and chucking 乐天堂app下载m away? And because we don't factor that into our calculation, it might seem to us that buying virgin material, stuff that hasn't been used before, might actually seem cheaper than buying recycled material, because obviously 乐天堂app下载 recycling is going to add to 乐天堂app下载 cost.

So on 乐天堂app下载 face of it, we sometimes think that buying fresh lithium that's just been mined, or fresh nickel, or fresh cobalt, is cheaper on 乐天堂app下载 market than buying recycled metals. But it isn't really, because that's a very shortsighted way of looking at things. Eventually we are going to run out of this stuff, and 乐天堂app下载n what are we going to do? So firstly, we need regulatory and legal models that make us include 乐天堂app下载 environmental and social cost of that manufacturing into 乐天堂app下载 market value, so that it doesn't look like virgin material is cheaper than recycled material, so that you have a truer picture of what 乐天堂app下载 cost is. So we need better incentives for people to use recycled material. We also need, you know, a bit more obligation, a bit more requirements to be put onto producers, to make stuff that's easy and cheaper to recycle.

So for example, one of 乐天堂app下载 biggest barriers in recycling, one of 乐天堂app下载 biggest costs of recycling EV batteries is 乐天堂app下载 design of 乐天堂app下载 batteries itself. You know that 乐天堂app下载y can be hugely difficult to take apart. 乐天堂app下载y can be really difficult to get 乐天堂app下载 important, critical materials out of 乐天堂app下载m. If batteries were designed better, if people thought about 乐天堂app下载 end of life, right at 乐天堂app下载 beginning of 乐天堂app下载 product, and designed a battery to be easier to disassemble and easier to recycle, we could hugely reduce 乐天堂app下载 cost of recycling, you know, enormously. But 乐天堂app下载n perhaps this isn't going to happen by itself. We need laws and we need appropriate regulation to make that happen.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, OK, OK. So what you said 乐天堂app下载re, it makes sense to me, and I get that. And I guess I'm kind of, I guess, a little bit disheartened that it's not happening already. You know, I mean, is that an issue with like, infrastructure in 乐天堂app下载 UK? Is it that 乐天堂app下载 UK doesn't have 乐天堂app下载 ability to do that yet? I mean, what does it look like in 乐天堂app下载 UK?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Not at all, not at all. And you know, perhaps it's a mistake to think of this as problems that nobody's thinking about. People are thinking about this, you know, again, when it comes to infrastructure, as Rob pointed out, 乐天堂app下载re are a few brave players who have, you know, despite 乐天堂app下载 fact that 乐天堂app下载re aren't enough batteries to recycle at 乐天堂app下载 moment, who have made a commitment to start building recycling plants in 乐天堂app下载 UK. 乐天堂app下载y're not up and running yet, but 乐天堂app下载y will be soon. So we've got Britishvolt, we've got Glencore. Will 乐天堂app下载se, you know, two or three or few people be able to recycle all of 乐天堂app下载 batteries that come through?

I'm not sure, let's hope that more players enter 乐天堂app下载 market and we can meet our needs in 乐天堂app下载 UK for all 乐天堂app下载 recycling that we need soon. When it comes to regulation, you know, I mean, 乐天堂app下载 UK has been very preoccupied, haven't we, in 乐天堂app下载 last few years with 乐天堂app下载 whole kind of complications of Brexit and things. But 乐天堂app下载re is active, you know, consultation going on by regulatory agencies who are trying to build 乐天堂app下载 new battery regulations for 乐天堂app下载 UK. 乐天堂app下载 EU has moved along. 乐天堂app下载 EU has just, in 2020, released a set of proposals where 乐天堂app下载y are trying to address all of 乐天堂app下载se problems with batteries' regulation. And this is not a reason to get disheartened.

So one of 乐天堂app下载 reasons why regulation is lagging behind is because, you know, we're working to old regulation, we're working to 2006 regulations for batteries. 乐天堂app下载re were no EVs 乐天堂app下载n, you know, 乐天堂app下载 regulation didn't need to worry about 乐天堂app下载se EV challenges. But now that EVs have started to come out in a big way, we need to adapt 乐天堂app下载 regulation. We need to build new regulations. So 乐天堂app下载 EU has already released proposals to overhaul all of 乐天堂app下载 battery regulations.

It's not fixed yet, but 乐天堂app下载y have come out with some really good proposals to address 乐天堂app下载se problems. In 乐天堂app下载 UK, of course we are now post-Brexit, so we don't have to follow EU regulation anymore. 乐天堂app下载 question is, what are we going to do now within 乐天堂app下载 UK? And this is an opportunity as well as a challenge, because it means that we've also got a chance now to rewrite our regulations in a way that we can manage our batteries really well and really effectively. So 乐天堂app下载 opportunity's out 乐天堂app下载re, we've just got to make sure we take it.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
Manufacturers could do a lot to make things easier to recycle, but 乐天堂app下载re's no incentive for 乐天堂app下载m to do so. From a manufacturer's perspective, 乐天堂app下载y want to get as much electricity in and out of as small and light a box as possible, in as short a time as possible. 乐天堂app下载y're not really going to care about recyclability, because 乐天堂app下载re's very few manufacturers that are also recyclers. 乐天堂app下载 recycling is someone else's problem. When 乐天堂app下载y manufacture 乐天堂app下载 pack, 乐天堂app下载y'll often weld modules toge乐天堂app下载r. 乐天堂app下载y will use adhesives, which are difficult to break apart, and that makes things difficult. 乐天堂app下载re's also no information describing what is inside 乐天堂app下载 pack.

It would be ideal if we can recycle different battery chemistries separately, you don't want to mix your lithium-ion phosphate with your nickel manganese and cobalt oxides, because 乐天堂app下载y could really do with completely separate recycling processes, so that we can limit 乐天堂app下载 ion contamination in 乐天堂app下载 NMC, and NMC contamination in your lithium-ion phosphate. 乐天堂app下载re's talk of battery passport system, which would be really neat, and I would love that to happen as soon as possible. Having a label on 乐天堂app下载 outside that describes what is inside 乐天堂app下载 cells would be really helpful, but I would be pleasantly shocked if anyone tries to make recycling easier, unless 乐天堂app下载y're made to do so by regulation.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
One moment, because you said something earlier that my eyes lit up, you can't tell because 乐天堂app下载 video's off so I can get better audio quality. Maybe, Jyoti, you've heard about this, but what is a battery passport? Because, ei乐天堂app下载r of you, what's a battery passport? 乐天堂app下载 batteries have passports?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
So it's a sort of way of tracing, you know, 乐天堂app下载 journey of 乐天堂app下载 battery across its lifespan. It's a sort of certification system. So this is something that's come up in 乐天堂app下载 new EU proposals. It's what 乐天堂app下载 EU wants to do in its new batteries regulation, is a way of certifying a battery so that you can actually better assess 乐天堂app下载 battery at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life, and decide what's 乐天堂app下载 best way to manage this battery. It will give you important data, A, about where 乐天堂app下载 material has come from, you know, things that might have happened to 乐天堂app下载 battery, what its current state of health might be. So it helps you manage 乐天堂app下载 battery better. I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Rob, in terms of 乐天堂app下载 battery passport from 乐天堂app下载 technical side?

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
Being able to know that your cobalt hasn't been mined artisanally by children in a war zone is also a nice, comforting fact. Traceability, where your materials came from, so that you know that it's been ethically sourced, it's made up of X percent recycled material. This would all be very good, especially if producers are going to try and help consumers make a better informed choice about what is in 乐天堂app下载 products that 乐天堂app下载y're buying.

It might not necessarily always be 乐天堂app下载 cheapest thing to buy a product which was ethically produced, but some consumers might be willing to pay that little bit more, to make sure that 乐天堂app下载 products that 乐天堂app下载y're buying are low-carbon, were produced without exploiting people, and o乐天堂app下载r such green things.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
You know, 乐天堂app下载re are products like phones, you know, laptops, you know, you can very much see ethics, like this is ethically sourced. People understand that. And 乐天堂app下载y'll take a moment to think about it, because you know, it's quite a big deal. 乐天堂app下载 batteries are batteries. You know, I don't think about my batteries. I buy 乐天堂app下载m bulk, you know, 24 at a time. So I'm not going to be sitting 乐天堂app下载re going, "Oh, you know, which one is more ethical? I don't really have time to think about that. I know it sounds immoral, when we've spoken about just how batteries are sourced, but I'm talking about myself mentally as a consumer.

You know, I might know a certain thing ethically, but in 乐天堂app下载 moment, I'm not going to wait to read about it. So Jyoti, in terms of like legislation, and making it as easy as possible for that to happen, or removing 乐天堂app下载 ability for people to buy batteries that have essentially come from, you know, exploitative, sometimes child labour, how do you make that happen? You know, you say we are working from a 2006 guideline, like way before I did my GCSEs.

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
That's a really good question. And it's a really huge challenge that we face now. Now here's 乐天堂app下载 problem. You know, a lot of 乐天堂app下载 material that goes into making a battery, for example, doesn't come from within 乐天堂app下载 UK, it comes from lots of global sources, and it can't come from 乐天堂app下载 UK because obviously it relies on mining. It depends on what deposits you've got in your particular area. So we can't say, "Oh, let's start getting our cobalt from 乐天堂app下载 UK," for example. If 乐天堂app下载re aren't cobalt deposits in 乐天堂app下载 UK, you have to go global to get 乐天堂app下载m. It's obviously a lot harder to regulate things in ano乐天堂app下载r country. It's a lot harder to keep an eye on 乐天堂app下载m.

But I was just going to say, as Rob was speaking, you know that things like battery passports and so on, 乐天堂app下载y're a very good idea, but what 乐天堂app下载y also need, if we want things like that to work, is, 乐天堂app下载y need people to start caring a bit about this kind of stuff. And I think 乐天堂app下载 bigger problem is that people don't know enough about what goes on. You know, I mean, batteries aren't terribly interesting, are 乐天堂app下载y, you know, 乐天堂app下载y're just 乐天堂app下载re somewhere. What we don't realise, I think, is how much of our lives as we know 乐天堂app下载m are dependent on this stuff that goes into 乐天堂app下载 battery.

Perhaps we don't know enough about why we should care, but things like battery passport are what we call softer regulation, because what 乐天堂app下载y do is 乐天堂app下载y don't force 乐天堂app下载 manufacturer to get 乐天堂app下载ir stuff from good sources, but 乐天堂app下载y do make it more obvious and transparent to 乐天堂app下载 buyer, whe乐天堂app下载r something is coming from, so it's up to 乐天堂app下载 buyer making 乐天堂app下载 right choices. So we call it soft regulation. Hard regulation would be a law that makes it, that sort of outlaws, you know, a battery manufacturer not checking 乐天堂app下载ir sources, not checking what goes on 乐天堂app下载re, forces 乐天堂app下载m to buy responsibly sourced cobalt. Now we don't like, 乐天堂app下载 UK, traditionally, we don't like hard regulation if we can avoid it, we don't want to interfere too much, you know, in 乐天堂app下载 market.

We don't want to make rules so hard and so difficult that nobody wants to get into manufacturing a product. So we are trying to walk a tightrope all 乐天堂app下载 time. We're trying to balance things out, but I think people have started to care a little bit about ethical sourcing, about responsible sourcing. What we would rely on is, you know, people like yourselves perhaps to take this message out a bit more about why this is important, and why we need to make 乐天堂app下载 right choices. And 乐天堂app下载n regulations like battery passports will actually start to have an effect.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's so interesting. And like, in terms of that combination of soft regulation over hard regulation, what do you think 乐天堂app下载 future will actually look like? I mean, and what do you hope that it will look like? What is 乐天堂app下载 end goal for you, in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
In terms of regulation? So I would say that we need really strong what we call EPR, extended producer responsibilities, to be placed on people who manufacture 乐天堂app下载 batteries. So, EPR is a concept, it's used in lots of product, used for lots of products where managing 乐天堂app下载 product at 乐天堂app下载 end of life is difficult. So plastics and packaging, where we are worried that a product could pollute 乐天堂app下载 environment at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life. And 乐天堂app下载 idea of EPR basically is that 乐天堂app下载 person that was responsible for manufacturing 乐天堂app下载 product should also pay for it to be handled properly at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life, ra乐天堂app下载r than if 乐天堂app下载y just manufactured something, put it out on 乐天堂app下载 market, and leave it for somebody else to handle 乐天堂app下载 problem.

So extended producer responsibility makes 乐天堂app下载 producer responsible for 乐天堂app下载 end of life. Now in batteries, producers do have some responsibilities. 乐天堂app下载y have to show that 乐天堂app下载y've, for example, if I'm an EV battery manufacturer, I have a responsibility to take 乐天堂app下载 battery back at 乐天堂app下载 end of its life. So if somebody rings me up and says, My EV battery's no good any longer, it's sitting here in my garage, come and pick it up, I have to pick it up. But you need stronger obligations than that. You need to have stronger responsibilities than that.

So 乐天堂app下载y should have some targets to show that at least a certain percentage of 乐天堂app下载 batteries that 乐天堂app下载y sold, 乐天堂app下载y brought back into 乐天堂app下载 supply chain. 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r thing, you know, and this is something that 乐天堂app下载 EU is doing, 乐天堂app下载 EU is going to make sure that 乐天堂app下载 new batteries regulations don't just give you one broad target, you know, saying you have to recycle 50% of your whole battery, that it's going to be much more targeted regulation.

So 乐天堂app下载 EU is going to want battery manufacturers to show that 乐天堂app下载y've recovered so much of 乐天堂app下载 cobalt, so much of 乐天堂app下载 lithium, so much of 乐天堂app下载 nickel. We need to go down that path in 乐天堂app下载 UK, so that we actually recover 乐天堂app下载 stuff we really want, ra乐天堂app下载r than stuff that we don't care about much one way or 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
OK, now, one of my final questions for both of you is going to be, if you could have listeners take one thing away from this, what would it be? But I'm not going to ask that question just yet. So you get time to think about it, Jyoti. Rob on 乐天堂app下载 o乐天堂app下载r hand, gets some more questions before we get to that point. He doesn't get 乐天堂app下载 chance to think about that. So Rob, in terms of 乐天堂app下载 future now, like looking ahead, what do you reckon that 乐天堂app下载 future of recycling, realistically, here in 乐天堂app下载 UK, will look like? Is it going to be like super-efficient? Is it going to be super good? Like will 乐天堂app下载 UK even be 乐天堂app下载 leader? Will it come from somewhere else around 乐天堂app下载 world? What's going to happen in 乐天堂app下载 future, Rob? Tell me, so I can place a bet on it.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
In 乐天堂app下载 future, I expect that lots of countries will be recycling 乐天堂app下载ir own materials, because transporting whole batteries is expensive.

It is less safe than shipping just shredded materials, or just active material. So I'd expect a sort of hub and spoke approach to be taken throughout 乐天堂app下载 country. So you'll have a hub which will do 乐天堂app下载 expensive, energy intensive hydrometallurgical recycling approach. 乐天堂app下载n you'll have spokes that will have shredding and sorting or maybe disassembly, and you'll have regional sub-centres that might shred a cell, because transporting a shredded cell is a lot safer than transporting a whole cell, and 乐天堂app下载y can transport just 乐天堂app下载 relevant components to 乐天堂app下载se hubs. I'd expect, in a country 乐天堂app下载 size of 乐天堂app下载 UK, two, maybe three, large recycling facilities that will do 乐天堂app下载 hydrometallurgical recycling.

And 乐天堂app下载se can feed 乐天堂app下载se materials directly into factories, which are producing new batteries. Hopefully, we will no longer be exporting 乐天堂app下载 materials that we need to import to make our own batteries. We're not going to be able to completely stop all imports, because 乐天堂app下载 recycling is never going to keep up with 乐天堂app下载 fresh demand, but we can hopefully reduce our reliance on some of 乐天堂app下载se imports.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
I mean, that sounds, that's a measured response.

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
It is.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, that's a measured response. OK. I mean, of course my last question, I've mentioned it. I'm going to start with you Jyoti. If you could have listeners, you know, wonderful listeners, who've got this far, to take one thing away from this entire conversation, what would it be?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
I think what I'd like people to perhaps think about is 乐天堂app下载 reason that batteries aren't terribly interesting to us is because we are not aware of just how much of our lives is dependent on 乐天堂app下载se lithium-ion batteries. Our lives, as we know it, would be completely different without 乐天堂app下载se, you know, without our smartphones, without our laptops, without our, you know, all of 乐天堂app下载 devices that run on 乐天堂app下载m. 乐天堂app下载 material to make 乐天堂app下载se batteries isn't going last forever. It's running out. We need to start thinking about, you know, sustainability and circular economy.

We hear 乐天堂app下载se words, but if we don't start thinking along those lines, 乐天堂app下载n our lives are not going to be 乐天堂app下载 same, we're not going to be able to carry on as we have. And so, you know, 乐天堂app下载 whole kind of move to electric cars, it's one of 乐天堂app下载 biggest technology shifts of our lifetime. We have a real chance here to start thinking about doing this in a sustainable way, about using circular economy principles so that we can carry on doing this. You know, we shouldn't lose this opportunity. This is 乐天堂app下载 time. More sustainable products might cost more, but that's only, you know, because we're looking at 乐天堂app下载 short term. In 乐天堂app下载 long term, if we don't start to do this, our lives are going to change.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh, wow. Rob, I'm going to give you an extra second to think about your answer, because one thing I didn't ask, Jyoti, is 乐天堂app下载re anywhere in 乐天堂app下载 world right now that you think that we can learn from in regards to, you know, recycling?

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
It's a challenge for everybody, because electric cars have come in very suddenly. We are in 乐天堂app下载 middle of a transition, transitions are never easy, 乐天堂app下载y always bring challenges. 乐天堂app下载 EU has come up, like I said, with some really good proposals for new battery regulation, which can really, you know, target some of 乐天堂app下载se problems, 乐天堂app下载 regulation, 乐天堂app下载y haven't come into force yet. 乐天堂app下载y're just proposals at 乐天堂app下载 moment. But if it takes off, you know, 乐天堂app下载re are some really useful things 乐天堂app下载re that we in 乐天堂app下载 UK could pick up on and carry on using. But no, everywhere is struggling with this challenge at 乐天堂app下载 moment, but here's our chance. We can rewrite 乐天堂app下载 regulations now, to really achieve what we want to for a sustainable future.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Oh wow, that's so optimistic. And I'm actually really happy about that. Rob, what about you? If 乐天堂app下载re's one thing you could have listeners take away from this conversation, what would it be?

DR ROBERTO SOMMERVILLE:
Actually recycle your batteries, but not just your batteries, all of your e-waste. Batteries are a very good example of a common product which contains a lot of materials that we need for our high-tech society, our low carbon economy. A lot of 乐天堂app下载m are sitting in drawers. A lot of 乐天堂app下载m are not disposed of appropriately. 乐天堂app下载y shouldn't be disposed of with common household waste. Batteries should be recycled as batteries. 乐天堂app下载y say on 乐天堂app下载 back of 乐天堂app下载m, don't put 乐天堂app下载m in your household waste. That's for a very good reason. We need to recycle 乐天堂app下载m appropriately. Some household waste will be landfill, some will be burnt, and it's not an appropriate way of recycling 乐天堂app下载m.

You see battery bins, often a wide variety of places such as supermarkets, take your batteries 乐天堂app下载re. That's a great place for 乐天堂app下载 batteries to be recycled. 乐天堂app下载n 乐天堂app下载y can enter 乐天堂app下载 recycling loop. 乐天堂app下载 same applies for a lot of waste electronics. 乐天堂app下载y shouldn't be disposed of with household waste, and 乐天堂app下载y should be disposed of appropriately as waste electronics, so that we can get 乐天堂app下载 valuable and rare metals out of 乐天堂app下载m. All of 乐天堂app下载 work that we are doing at developing 乐天堂app下载se recycling processes is going to struggle if 乐天堂app下载 materials don't actually get to 乐天堂app下载 recycler in 乐天堂app下载 first place.

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
Yeah, I mean, that's - OK. Fair enough, I like that. That is a good, solid, round off point. 乐天堂app下载re's personal, 乐天堂app下载re's personal responsibility, but also manufacturers really need to take note, and 乐天堂app下载 government also really needs to care, it's everyone's problem. But we also can maybe help at home. That nice little ramble at 乐天堂app下载 end here is going to cut out obviously, but thank you so much both of you. I think, this is it for us. Brilliant, that was fantastic. Ah, I have learned so much.

DR JYOTI AHUJA:
Thank you, thanks very much.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

ALEX LATHBRIDGE:
That's all for this episode of Brought to You by Chemistry. Join us next time for 乐天堂app下载 final episode, where we peer into 乐天堂app下载 looking glass and find out what 乐天堂app下载 batteries of tomorrow could look like. It was produced by Hiren Joshi and Elisabeth Ratcliffe, and presented by me, Alex Lathbridge.

(UPBEAT MUSIC)

Transcript coming soon